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Predestination??

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Jedi

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Reformationist said:
And what, Jedi, is the "just" thing for God to do to sinners? You sure you want God to do what is just to you? You justly deserve to burn in hell for your transgressions.


The just thing to do to sinners is exactly that, yet God has chosen to show grace. If He is going to give grace to some, then in order to be fair, He has to give the same grace to all: everyone gets the same opportunity.

other than the fact that it is ridiculously centered on all men getting what no man deserves


This is called “grace.” There is no reason whatsoever for God to give grace to some and not all if He is, indeed, completely good (for a completely good God would wish to give as much grace as possible).

The problem with such a notion, other than the fact that it is ridiculously centered on all men getting what no man deserves, is that it makes the appropriation of salvation the product of man availing himself of an "opportunity." Nothing in the Gospel even comes close to intimating such a repugnant and unrealistic notion of redemption.


Oh, give me a break. Scripture is full of examples of people going away then returning to God of their own accord. Read Judges some time. The pattern is clear: people are good with God, they slip away, judgment comes, they repent and are brought back into a good relationship with God. Those who hold to Calvinism are actually quite funny: you see accepting a gift as work or that by accepting a gift, you have magically “earned” it. What a joke. Nowhere is such a mentality found in any gift-giving scenario, but they try to pull it off concerning the gift of salvation.

In a discussion about salvation, however, a person's "chance" to be saved is dependant upon God working in them by regenerating them and then, the probability that they will be in Heaven is 100%, for God does not lose a single one that He gives to the Son.


This presumes there is only one variable in a person’s salvation (in this case, God). That is not the case, for a free-willed creature must have input into his salvation, else he is not free. In other words, for a man to truly be saved, he must remain himself and not have his will twisted and contorted so that he is forced into loving God.

Well, you have simply read into these verses that which you want it to say. If you're actually interested in applying these verses properly I would be happy to assist. If, however, any exegetical work I may offer is simply going to fall on deaf ears, well, I'll save us both some time. Let me know.


Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The verses make general statements of God, not conditional ones based on the surrounded context. The authors in both instances are appealing to a general truth of God to support their claims concerning a specific situation. Further still, if you wanted to dispute these general claims concerning the nature of God, you would have to say that God does show favoritism (which would make him unjust) and/or that God wants people to perish (which would make him less than all-good, for having people perish should be obligatory, much like killing the enemy in war).

Again I reiterate, salvation is not the product of man availing himself of an opportunity. However, God does give every man the "opportunity" to serve Him as Lord and Savior. The problem is that man is a sinner by nature and, in his natural state, sees God as the enemy and His Word as foolishness. It is not until God regenerates a person and gives him a heart that seeks to do God's will, one with faith in the risen Lord, that he will ever do so and even then, imperfectly, for sin still pervades his flesh, though he be of a righteous soul.


Once again, what good is being given a choice if it is only possible to pick one option? You might as well have an election with two candidates, but on the ballet, there is only one option. The reality, then, is that the people have no choice at all. For free-will creatures, salvation hinges upon two things: an offer of salvation being given by God, and the free-will creature freely accepting that offer.

Ah yes, the ridiculous notion that man is not born a sinner but becomes a sinner when he sins. Found nowhere in the Bible, purported all throughout the world.

It’s a logical matter: you cannot blame someone for something they did not do. That is exactly what you’re asserting and this flies straight in the face of justice.

He cannot now because He has decreed that the first Adam will serve as a federal representative for his progeny.

There’s no sense (nor biblical support) for that whatsoever. There’s no sense holding one person’s decision to be the same as everyone else’s decision when everyone else did not agree with that person’s decision nor did they decide to make him their representative.

It doesn't really matter because the very idea that "I shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of Adam because I would have done differently" shows that you would rather call into question the holiness of God in appointing for you a representative before Him for either salvation or damnation.

Exactly. I did not exist, so how could Adam possibly represent someone who does not exist? Scripture never teaches that Adam’s decision is presented to God as my decision. You might as well try to give someone the death penalty because his father committed a series of federal crimes before he was born.

I'd rather acknowledge the implicit teaching that I would have chosen just as did Adam than live my life believing that God was wrong. You seem to feel differently.

And I would rather believe that God is just and holds me accountable for what I do, not what someone else does, and that nowhere in all of scripture am I said to have my response toward God be decided for me by Adam and Eve before I was even existed.

However, claiming that man's salvation is the product of man's choice shows a lack of dependence upon the only One who will reconcile His people to God. Without the merit of the Lord one is left to justifying themselves by their own works, an undertaking I would wish on no one.

Simply stating that free-will creatures choose to accept a gift is in no way promoting the idea that they have earned their salvation. It is a straw man that is easily tossed aside whenever we realize that simply accepting a gift does not merit that gift. A gift received is still a gift.
 
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Jedi

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seekingpurity047 said:
Begs the question:

Why do we love God?

Please refer to where I discussed the psychology of what makes people people. What we know for sure is that it cannot be because God made us love him, for forced love is not love at all, but rape. If God twisted and contorted our wills to love him, we would no more love him than a mind-controlled girl whose will I twisted so she would long for me.
 
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strengthinweakness

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Question-- on what basis does God elect someone to salvation? Is His election based upon a person's choice to believe, which God merely foresees? If so, then that person is elected based on a genuinely good choice, even a very praiseworthy choice, that he (or she) has made. Think about that for a minute! If "choosing to believe" is a completely free, autonomous choice, then it is actually the best, most wise choice that a person could ever make... which, of course, compared to the non-believer, would undeniably give said person something of his own (because, after all, it is a "free choice") to boast about before God and the world! I have heard Arminians do such boasting myself-- "Why won't those non-believers just make the right choice (i.e. to choose God)?" The unwitting implication of the question is that the believer is somehow "better" or "wiser" or "more prudent" than the non-believer in "choosing" to believe. This is nothing more than human pride. If we are elected to salvation based upon our good, wise choice to believe, then regardless of any protests to the contrary, we can legitimately share some of the credit for our salvation. We can say to God, "Hey, I freely chose to believe-- now You are obligated to save me!" God owes nothing to anyone. There is nothing that any person can do to obligate Him in any way. Either His election is based upon an inherently good choice (the best possible of all choices!) that a sinful human makes... or His election is based on His mercy, His purpose, and His good pleasure. Much of modern, feel-good, man-centered evangelical theology teaches the former. The Bible teaches the latter. See Israel in the OT, being selected from among the nations, not for any of its own supposed good choices, but purely for God's glory, see Jeremiah's being "known" by God and "set apart" for Him as a fetus in his mother's womb, see Paul's completely unsolicited road-to-Damascus conversion experience in Acts, see Jacob and Esau, according to God's "purpose in election" in Romans 9, etc. etc...
 
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strengthinweakness

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Jedi said:
Please refer to where I discussed the psychology of what makes people people. What we know for sure is that it cannot be because God made us love him, for forced love is not love at all, but rape. If God twisted and contorted our wills to love him, we would no more love him than a mind-controlled girl whose will I twisted so she would long for me.

If a surgeon operated on a severly brain-damaged man so that that man would be able to think clearly, would the surgeon be guilty of "forcing" that man into a lucid state? Clearly not. The surgeon would be performing an act of mercy for the brain-damaged man. God does the same for sinners when He changes their rebellious hearts of stone to hearts of flesh which are actually willing to serve and worship Him. For a human being to force him/herself on another person is sinful. It is a violation of love. For God to change the hearts and minds of sinners who hate Him, however, is the ultimate act of love! Put simply, He saves sinners from themselves (and of course, from His wrath)! Left to themselves, they would never choose God. I speak as a sinner out of my own personal experience-- all glory be to God! :clap: :bow:

Oh, and the crucial difference between the "brain-damaged man" scenario above and the situation of sinners-- we actively love our sin. We don't want to be saved until God changes our hearts. Therefore, if God leaves some people in their sins, He is giving them what they want, and He is also being just in punishing wickedness. If He saves other people from their sins, He is being merciful. All people receive either justice or mercy from God. There is no room for anyone to claim before God that He has given out an undeserved punishment.
 
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Reformationist

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Jedi, I don't think anything productive is coming from our discussion. I am responding more out of agitation than a desire that you understand the reformed view of the Gospel and, to be honest, your responses are the most hypocritical I've ever been privvy to on this MB, which is saying something considering the amount of time I've spent posting here. This has turned into nothing more than an opportunity to waste my time posting long replies that only seem to incite you to perpetuate your anthropocentric argument. I do not believe my stomach is strong enough to continue reading the unbiblical views that you espouse. I wish you well and pray that the Lord blesses you greatly.

Maybe someone else will be better equipped to discuss these issues with you.
 
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strengthinweakness said:
If a surgeon operated on a severly brain-damaged man so that that man be able to think clearly, would the surgeon be guilty of "forcing" that man into a lucid state? Clearly not. The surgeon would be performing an act of mercy for the brain-damaged man. God does the same for sinners when He changes their rebellious hearts of stone to hearts of flesh which are actually willing to serve and worship Him. For a human being to force him/herself on another person is sinful. It is a violation of love. For God to change the hearts and minds of sinners who hate Him, however, is the ultimate act of love! Put simply, He saves sinners from themselves (and of course, from His wrath)! Left to themselves, they would never choose God. I speak as a sinner out of my own personal experience-- all glory be to God! :clap: :bow:

Oh, and the crucial difference between the "brain-damaged man" scenario above and the situation of sinners-- we actively love our sin. We don't want to be saved until God changes our hearts. Therefore, if God leaves some people in their sins, He is giving them what they want, and He is also being just in punishing wickedness. If He saves other people from their sins, He is being merciful. All people receive either justice or mercy from God. There is no room for anyone to claim before God that He has given out an undeserved punishment.

I may not be replying to Jedi from here on out but, trust me, if this is indicative of your beliefs I will definitely be following along. I can see that I can gain quite a bit from such posts. Thank you.

God bless
 
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mlqurgw

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Jedi said:


The just thing to do to sinners is exactly that, yet God has chosen to show grace. If He is going to give grace to some, then in order to be fair, He has to give the same grace to all: everyone gets the same opportunity.



This is called “grace.” There is no reason whatsoever for God to give grace to some and not all if He is, indeed, completely good (for a completely good God would wish to give as much grace as possible).



Oh, give me a break. Scripture is full of examples of people going away then returning to God of their own accord. Read Judges some time. The pattern is clear: people are good with God, they slip away, judgment comes, they repent and are brought back into a good relationship with God. Those who hold to Calvinism are actually quite funny: you see accepting a gift as work or that by accepting a gift, you have magically “earned” it. What a joke. Nowhere is such a mentality found in any gift-giving scenario, but they try to pull it off concerning the gift of salvation.



This presumes there is only one variable in a person’s salvation (in this case, God). That is not the case, for a free-willed creature must have input into his salvation, else he is not free. In other words, for a man to truly be saved, he must remain himself and not have his will twisted and contorted so that he is forced into loving God.



Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The verses make general statements of God, not conditional ones based on the surrounded context. The authors in both instances are appealing to a general truth of God to support their claims concerning a specific situation. Further still, if you wanted to dispute these general claims concerning the nature of God, you would have to say that God does show favoritism (which would make him unjust) and/or that God wants people to perish (which would make him less than all-good, for having people perish should be obligatory, much like killing the enemy in war).



Once again, what good is being given a choice if it is only possible to pick one option? You might as well have an election with two candidates, but on the ballet, there is only one option. The reality, then, is that the people have no choice at all. For free-will creatures, salvation hinges upon two things: an offer of salvation being given by God, and the free-will creature freely accepting that offer.



It’s a logical matter: you cannot blame someone for something they did not do. That is exactly what you’re asserting and this flies straight in the face of justice.



There’s no sense (nor biblical support) for that whatsoever. There’s no sense holding one person’s decision to be the same as everyone else’s decision when everyone else did not agree with that person’s decision nor did they decide to make him their representative.



Exactly. I did not exist, so how could Adam possibly represent someone who does not exist? Scripture never teaches that Adam’s decision is presented to God as my decision. You might as well try to give someone the death penalty because his father committed a series of federal crimes before he was born.



And I would rather believe that God is just and holds me accountable for what I do, not what someone else does, and that nowhere in all of scripture am I said to have my response toward God be decided for me by Adam and Eve before I was even existed.



Simply stating that free-will creatures choose to accept a gift is in no way promoting the idea that they have earned their salvation. It is a straw man that is easily tossed aside whenever we realize that simply accepting a gift does not merit that gift. A gift received is still a gift.
The question still remains whether a gift is received actively or passively? The very nature of a gift requires that it be received passively, otherwise it is only an offer.
 
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strengthinweakness

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Reformationist said:
I may not be replying to Jedi from here on out but, trust me, if this is indicative of your beliefs I will definitely be following along. I can see that I can gain quite a bit from such posts. Thank you.

God bless

Thanks, Reformationist. All glory goes to God, not me, but thank you sincerely. :) I can understand your frustration in these discussions. Until last year, I was an Arminian myself though, hehe, so I guess that that helps me to keep from becoming frustrated in discussions with people who either don't understand or just refuse to accept the truth of Reformed Christianity. Been there, done that, on both counts! Thanks be to God that He softened my heart and opened my eyes to see more of His truth! None of it is due to special insight or intelligence on my part. I see it more as humbling evidence of His mercy upon me.
 
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Jedi

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strengthinweakness said:
If "choosing to believe" is a completely free, autonomous choice, then it is actually the best, most wise choice that a person could ever make... which, of course, compared to the non-believer, would undeniably give said person something of his own (because, after all, it is a "free choice") to boast about before God and the world!


This would be true if you had to pass some sort of theology test to get into Heaven, as if the person with a good amount of intellect merited himself a ticket through the pearly gates. This is not the case. The reality of it is not what is the wisest choice or even the “best” choice (best according to whom?), since for a person who most wants to avoid God, the “best” choice would be to be left to himself (hell) because that is what he wants. Accepting God’s gift of salvation, then, is no more something to boast about than a criminal choosing to let someone bail him out of jail.

I have heard Arminians do such boasting myself-- "Why won't those non-believers just make the right choice (i.e. to choose God)?" The unwitting implication of the question is that the believer is somehow "better" or "wiser" or "more prudent" than the non-believer in "choosing" to believe.This is nothing more than human pride.


In turn, Calvinists may think they are much better than their fellow man because God chose them and not others. Pride can be found in either camp; so pointing out its presence in one has nothing to with its veracity. In the case you mentioned, I’m not so sure these people truly understand the situation; they seem to think of it more as a theological quiz to pass than a preference to make.

If we are elected to salvation based upon our good, wise choice to believe, then regardless of any protests to the contrary, we can legitimately share some of the credit for our salvation.


Not quite. You might as well try to say that someone who lets someone bail him out of jail legitimately shares some of the credit for that bail because they made the “good, wise choice” of receiving that gift. The fact is that they have contributed nothing to that bail – they merely chose to receive it. It is not something to boast about, it is not something the prisoner had to work for, he merely received it and receiving is passive.

We can say to God, "Hey, I freely chose to believe-- now You are obligated to save me!" God owes nothing to anyone.


If God made free-will creatures whose will He intends to honor, then God is obligated to save the creatures who choose Him. It is a duty imposed on God by God.

or His election is based on His mercy, His purpose, and His good pleasure.


In other words, “favoritism.” Like I mentioned earlier, an entirely good God would want to save as many people in need as He can, just like a good parent would save as many of his sick kids as he could or a good lifeguard would save as many drowning civilians as he could. Calvin’s God does not do this, so that God is not entirely good. Some may say there is glory in the destruction of the wicked and this is true, but it is also true that there is more glory in having your enemies side with you than there is in destroying them. The God of Calvinism has chosen the lesser of the two glories by refraining to save all He could.

Much of modern, feel-good, man-centered evangelical theology teaches the former. The Bible teaches the latter.


I beg to differ. The objections I’ve raised here no Calvinist could answer and the passages they leaned so heavily on for support turned out to not say what they wished it to say. Calvinism isn’t biblically-based but power-based so much that it comes at the expense of goodness. If it came to a choice, I can serve a God who is not “able to do anything,” but I cannot serve a God who is not all-good.

See Israel in the OT, being selected from among the nations, not for any of its own supposed good choices, but purely for God's glory


Israel also had connections with the Patriarchs, who already had a very intimate relationship with God. God wasn’t showing favoritism here as you suggest.

see Jeremiah's being "known" by God and "set apart" for Him as a fetus in his mother's womb


Similar to Romans 9. It concerns his role in life based upon who he is, not God forcing him to be a little puppet for God.

see Paul's completely unsolicited road-to-Damascus conversion experience in Acts


God gave him an opportunity and Paul accepted it. God may present the opportunity to come to him differently to each person, but that doesn’t change the fact that the opportunity is presented fairly.

see Jacob and Esau, according to God's "purpose in election" in Romans 9


Already covered in my analysis of Romans 9. It’s not talking about making one go to Heaven and the other burn in hell but how each person, like chess pieces, are positioned in life as to best glorify God (note, however, this doesn’t change the nature of the chess pieces).

If a surgeon operated on a severly[sic – severely] brain-damaged man so that that man would be able to think clearly, would the surgeon be guilty of "forcing" that man into a lucid state? Clearly not. The surgeon would be performing an act of mercy for the brain-damaged man. God does the same for sinners when He changes their rebellious hearts of stone to hearts of flesh which are actually willing to serve and worship Him.


This presumes that the person is not thinking clearly (which is based on the presupposition that no one could ever really mean to reject God). If he is simply being himself, thinking clearly as himself, and the surgeon alters his brain in such a way to be attracted to the surgeon, then there’s a very big problem.

If the reason everyone does not choose God is only because they are “brain damaged,” then they are not truly free (since they are all actually predisposed to choosing him in their “clear minded” state). If they are not truly free, they are not truly people, but merely entities acting out on a predetermined program for them to long for God. Humans can never truly love someone, because their longing for God has been forced upon them.

Another problem still is that if the only reason people don’t choose God is because they are “brain damaged,” why doesn’t God heal them? These people aren’t enemies of God who need to be crushed, but madmen who need to be cured. There is not glory but shame in sending these people to hell when God could have saved them.

For a human being to force him/herself on another person is sinful. It is a violation of love. For God to change the hearts and minds of sinners who hate Him, however, is the ultimate act of love!



This is simply a double standard. For anyone to force himself or herself onto anyone else is not love, but rape. Who the culprit is does not change the act itself.

Oh, and the crucial difference between the "brain-damaged man" scenario above and the situation of sinners-- we actively love our sin. We don't want to be saved until God changes our hearts.


How can you possibly substantiate the latter claim? Do humans love sin? You bet. But humans also love goodness. They are depraved, but not totally depraved, of goodness. Further still, if no one wanted to be saved, why did God save them? People were then getting what they wanted, so the only person who didn’t seem to be getting what he wanted was God, so he had to force the humans to come to him – sounds an awful lot like rape to me. Besides, the brain-damaged man scenario could still hold if he was damaged in such a way that he enjoyed his madness.

Reformationist said:
I am responding more out of agitation than a desire that you understand the reformed view of the Gospel and, to be honest, your responses are the most hypocritical I've ever been privvy[sic – privy] to on this MB, which is saying something considering the amount of time I've spent posting here.


In kind, hypocrisy is only one of the faults I’ve seen without fail from your posts here in this thread. I have debated theology for years, have taken class upon class concerning it, and you have one of the worst theologies of anyone I have ever met.

This has turned into nothing more than an opportunity to waste my time posting long replies that only seem to incite you to perpetuate your anthropocentric argument.


I could turn around and say the same to you and your army of straw men combined with a drunkenness for power at the expense of goodness.

I do not believe my stomach is strong enough to continue reading the unbiblical views that you espouse.


They’re very biblical, I assure you. Scripture is chalk-full of episodes of people having to respond to God before God relents from some disaster that was going to befall them. I’ve even been through Romans 9 in detail (one of the Calvinists’ favorite passages) and showed how it doesn’t say what most Calvinists want it to say.
 
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mlqurgw said:
Jedi, would you please respond to my question?

It seemed that you answered your own question on the previous page about gifts being received and the recipient is passive in receiving it. In my response to others here, I've agree with ya. "Receiving a gift" is not equal to "work" or "merit." I've never heard of anyone waking up Christmas morning and thinking to themselves "Drat! I have a lot of work to do today" or "Awesome, I'm going to earn some presents today!" :)
 
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strengthinweakness

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Jedi, when I wrote about the hypothetical person who freely chooses to believe in God as making the "best choice," I meant that such a free, autonomous choice would be morally praiseworthy (if it were possible). As Scripture speaks clearly about all sinners being "enslaved to sin" and also states unequivocally that "no one seeks God," such a free, autonomous choice is an illusionary concept... more the product of human wishful thinking than a conclusion reached from an honest assessment of humanity's condition as depicted in the Bible. God's Word states that we are dead in our sins. How can spiritually dead people make the objectively good and wise choice to turn from their sins and trust in Christ for salvation? They can only make that choice if God opens their eyes and gives them ears to hear the Truth. If they could make the choice freely, they would not be spiritually dead-- just spiritually fatigued, or at worst, damaged. Scripture shows sinful humanity as being in a much, much worse state though.

As far as Calvinists possibly thinking that they are better than others because of God's choice in election, any Calvinist who truly understands the Reformed truth knows that God's choice of him (or her) had nothing to do with any sort of human righteousness or supposed goodness. That is the meaning of grace-- God's completely unmerited favor bestowed upon utterly undeserving rebels. God chooses the elect not because they are better, but rather, in spite of the fact that they are just as sinful and deserving of Hell as any people. Election is emphatically not favoritism on God's part. It's not about God "playing favorites." Both election and reprobation are about God displaying His attributes. Election displays God's mercy to sinners who don't deserve it. This shows His love. Reprobation displays His wrath toward sinners who do deserve it. This shows His justice. You keep saying that in order for God to be "fair," He has to "save as many people as possible." Think about the implications of that statement, in light of the fact that all human beings are willfully sinful rebels against God. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that if God were really going to be "fair," He would have to damn all of us? You have used the analogy of a lifeguard saving drowning civilians and applied it to God saving us. By your logic, for God to be fair, He has to save (or "give the opportunity to accept salvation to") as many "drowning" sinners as possible. Let's look at the analogy you are making here-- drowning civilians to lost sinners. It doesn't hold up, because the former are drowning against their will, while the latter are exactly where they want to be. Drowning people are only too happy to be rescued. However, as the Bible clearly states, lost sinners are at emnity with God. You say that although lost sinners sin (by definition), they also desire goodness. You are defining "goodness" according to your own subjective standards though. You are not defining it as the Bible does, because Scripture states that whatever is not done out of faith (in terms of moral actions) is sin. Perhaps that seems a bit harsh or extreme to you, but Scripture says it! The only morally good, pleasing acts to God are those that are done, first and foremost, out of faith in Him. Lost sinners who don't know God don't do anything out of faith in Him-- therefore, even though it might not fit your logic, according to the Bible, any act that a non-Christian does (that has a moral dimension!) is a sin. Therefore, lost sinners do not desire goodness! In order for them to do so, God has to change their hearts and minds. In other words, He has to regenerate them.

Your definition of "fairness" is also very human, very man-centered, in that it assumes that whatever would be fair for us to do would also, of necessity, be fair for God-- and in fact, if He didn't do, in His choices, what we would do (in order to be fair) in ours, then He wouldn't be fair! However, God is God, and we are not. Things that would be horrific for us to do, as finite beings, might well be good and wise for God to do, from His viewpoint of infinity. Any good human father would not willingly allow his child to be physically harmed. However, God allowed Job to be physically afflicted for His own purposes. He was sovereign over Job's suffering-- He allowed Satan to attack Job and his family. God didn't step in as soon as He saw Job starting to crack under pressure. If a human father treated his son in such a way, we would say that the man was cruel, heartless. We have no right to say such things about God though, because He sees from the beginning to the end, in all things, and we don't. He is perfectly wise, and we are not. Therefore, we cannot (and have no right to) "hold God hostage" to standards of what would or would not be fair for us to do, as finite beings with a limited view of history and reality. As I once heard someone say, each one of us has his/her own personal "perspective." However, God doesn't merely have a perspective-- He has Perspective, period. Therefore, His choice to save a person or to leave that person in his/her sins cannot be accurately evaluated for "fairness" from the viewpoint of finite humanity. He saves according to His purpose and pleasure-- and such a vantagepoint is far beyond any of us. From what the Bible states about fallen humanity and its attitude toward God though, we can know that He would be quite fair in damning all of us to Hell. In light of the fact that all humans are rebelious sinners, the real mystery is not, why doesn't God save more people? Rather, it is, why does He save any of us at all??

About Paul on the road to Damascus, you said that God "gave him an opportunity, and he accepted it." So, while on the way to persecute Christians, being knocked to the ground, blinded, and sent off for three days, only to be told at the end of that time, "You are my appointed spokesman".... that is being given an opportunity? No. Plain and simple, God chose Paul. Paul was not seeking God. He was on his way to persecute followers of the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ, when Paul was chosen by God to be a minister of the very Gospel that he was trying to destroy! Go back and read the account in Acts again-- if any situation displays God's unconditional election of sinners, it is that of Paul on the road to Damascus!

About the hypothetical "brain-damaged man" being a "madman" who needs to be "cured," you missed part of the point that I was making. A severely brain-damaged man is not culpable for his lack of lucidity, i.e. "not thinking clearly." However, a depraved sinner is culpable for his sin. The sinner's form of "not thinking clearly" is being in love with his sin, honestly enjoying it. It is a sort of "spiritual insanity," but it is not morally neutral (as being brain-damaged is), because it is self-chosen. You said, in regard to the "brain-damaged man/lost sinner" analogy, that if everyone "thought clearly," then they would all choose God. Yes... if we were all still in the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve had not fallen, we would all naturally choose God. However, that is obviously not the case. We are all fallen. We do not "think clearly," morally speaking-- but the problem is, without God's intervention in our lives, we don't want to think clearly. However, to display His sovereign grace and mercy, He steps in and restores some people. For others, He leaves them as they are-- which is how they want to be. That is a display of His sovereign justice. When God changes a sinner's heart so that he (or she) will be honestly, truly love God, it is not "rape"-- it is an act of love and mercy, because God is saving that person from his own destructive ways!

As for your exegesis of Romans 9, if it doesn't have to do with salvation, then why do the passages go from speaking of God's love of Jacob and hatred of Esau, based on His "purpose in election," "not by works but by Him who calls," straight over to a description of God as the "potter" and us as the "clay," finally culminating in the picture of God's "vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction?" Why are these "vessels of wrath, prepared for destruction" described as "displaying the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy?" (my emphasis) In light of those passages, the determining choice, as to who receives wrath (damnation) and who is shown mercy (salvation), certainly seems to belong to God.
 
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cygnusx1

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Jedi said:





A perfect example of the Calvinist idea of God’s omnipotence meaning “being able to do anything.” As soon as you say it is impossible for God to do something, it falls on deaf ears (even though scripture itself says “for it is impossible for God to lie” as I pointed out earlier).

Sure it is impossible for God to lie ................. that is why he sends out Lying Spirits !

Your view of God is clouded by what you have heard , when you discover what God is really like .......... You will tremble!

see Job , Isaiah and Ezekiel.
 
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ContraMundum

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Friends....I've been watching everyone talk past each other on this thread...so...

I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, but perhaps both Arminian and Calvinist positions are wrong. Has anyone considered the Lutheran position on predestination?

It basically affirms both that God wills all to be saved- yet pours His grace out on the elect, whom He presdestined. Somehow.

It's basically a position that seeks to uphold both theological truths and retain them in tension with each other- despite the fact that to the human mind they appear contradictory and attempts to solve the apparent contradiction end up confusing.

While other positions attempt to fuse the two tenets together this position refuses to allow dark human reason to muddy or water down either true proposition. In effect, this position protects and affirms the scriptures in their literal, pure sense. Often, the confusion on this position occurs because both the Calvinist and the Arminian position are said to water down or cast interpretations upon texts that do not wholly support their respective positions.

I said in another thread that predestination, election and that whole box and dice will remain a mystery that we cannot unfold. I will add to that statement that all our attempts to do so have injured the scriptures at some point. It is best to affirm what the Bible affirms, and be silent where it is silent, and be in awe of the gracious mystery of election and predesitnation.
 
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Interesting aside....

Ever notice that the Wesleyan position is really only a hair's breadth from Calvinism?

Best example: Charles Wesley's awesome hymn "And can it be that I should Gain?", in particular verse 4:

"Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee."
 
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mlqurgw

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Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 
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