Jedi
Knight
- Sep 19, 2002
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Reformationist said:And what, Jedi, is the "just" thing for God to do to sinners? You sure you want God to do what is just to you? You justly deserve to burn in hell for your transgressions.
The just thing to do to sinners is exactly that, yet God has chosen to show grace. If He is going to give grace to some, then in order to be fair, He has to give the same grace to all: everyone gets the same opportunity.
other than the fact that it is ridiculously centered on all men getting what no man deserves
This is called grace. There is no reason whatsoever for God to give grace to some and not all if He is, indeed, completely good (for a completely good God would wish to give as much grace as possible).
The problem with such a notion, other than the fact that it is ridiculously centered on all men getting what no man deserves, is that it makes the appropriation of salvation the product of man availing himself of an "opportunity." Nothing in the Gospel even comes close to intimating such a repugnant and unrealistic notion of redemption.
Oh, give me a break. Scripture is full of examples of people going away then returning to God of their own accord. Read Judges some time. The pattern is clear: people are good with God, they slip away, judgment comes, they repent and are brought back into a good relationship with God. Those who hold to Calvinism are actually quite funny: you see accepting a gift as work or that by accepting a gift, you have magically earned it. What a joke. Nowhere is such a mentality found in any gift-giving scenario, but they try to pull it off concerning the gift of salvation.
In a discussion about salvation, however, a person's "chance" to be saved is dependant upon God working in them by regenerating them and then, the probability that they will be in Heaven is 100%, for God does not lose a single one that He gives to the Son.
This presumes there is only one variable in a persons salvation (in this case, God). That is not the case, for a free-willed creature must have input into his salvation, else he is not free. In other words, for a man to truly be saved, he must remain himself and not have his will twisted and contorted so that he is forced into loving God.
Well, you have simply read into these verses that which you want it to say. If you're actually interested in applying these verses properly I would be happy to assist. If, however, any exegetical work I may offer is simply going to fall on deaf ears, well, I'll save us both some time. Let me know.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. The verses make general statements of God, not conditional ones based on the surrounded context. The authors in both instances are appealing to a general truth of God to support their claims concerning a specific situation. Further still, if you wanted to dispute these general claims concerning the nature of God, you would have to say that God does show favoritism (which would make him unjust) and/or that God wants people to perish (which would make him less than all-good, for having people perish should be obligatory, much like killing the enemy in war).
Again I reiterate, salvation is not the product of man availing himself of an opportunity. However, God does give every man the "opportunity" to serve Him as Lord and Savior. The problem is that man is a sinner by nature and, in his natural state, sees God as the enemy and His Word as foolishness. It is not until God regenerates a person and gives him a heart that seeks to do God's will, one with faith in the risen Lord, that he will ever do so and even then, imperfectly, for sin still pervades his flesh, though he be of a righteous soul.
Once again, what good is being given a choice if it is only possible to pick one option? You might as well have an election with two candidates, but on the ballet, there is only one option. The reality, then, is that the people have no choice at all. For free-will creatures, salvation hinges upon two things: an offer of salvation being given by God, and the free-will creature freely accepting that offer.
Ah yes, the ridiculous notion that man is not born a sinner but becomes a sinner when he sins. Found nowhere in the Bible, purported all throughout the world.
Its a logical matter: you cannot blame someone for something they did not do. That is exactly what youre asserting and this flies straight in the face of justice.
He cannot now because He has decreed that the first Adam will serve as a federal representative for his progeny.
Theres no sense (nor biblical support) for that whatsoever. Theres no sense holding one persons decision to be the same as everyone elses decision when everyone else did not agree with that persons decision nor did they decide to make him their representative.
It doesn't really matter because the very idea that "I shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of Adam because I would have done differently" shows that you would rather call into question the holiness of God in appointing for you a representative before Him for either salvation or damnation.
Exactly. I did not exist, so how could Adam possibly represent someone who does not exist? Scripture never teaches that Adams decision is presented to God as my decision. You might as well try to give someone the death penalty because his father committed a series of federal crimes before he was born.
I'd rather acknowledge the implicit teaching that I would have chosen just as did Adam than live my life believing that God was wrong. You seem to feel differently.
And I would rather believe that God is just and holds me accountable for what I do, not what someone else does, and that nowhere in all of scripture am I said to have my response toward God be decided for me by Adam and Eve before I was even existed.
However, claiming that man's salvation is the product of man's choice shows a lack of dependence upon the only One who will reconcile His people to God. Without the merit of the Lord one is left to justifying themselves by their own works, an undertaking I would wish on no one.
Simply stating that free-will creatures choose to accept a gift is in no way promoting the idea that they have earned their salvation. It is a straw man that is easily tossed aside whenever we realize that simply accepting a gift does not merit that gift. A gift received is still a gift.
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