Predestination vs. Faith

[friend of]

Hebrews 11:6
Without Faith it is impossible to please God.

God created us for His own pleasure and He desires us to pray to Him and Him alone.

Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope; but Hope that is seen is not Hope; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

God loves it when we persist in prayer with Hope and Faith, even when things aren't working out at the moment. The decision to trust in God despite bad things happening is precious in His sight.

If predestination is correct then the conditions of our hearts are ultimately premeditated. How then could God derive pleasure from Faith-inspired prayer? Isn't it through the perseverance of His children in prayer that he derives pleasure from our prayers?

 

[5thKingdom]

Hebrews 11:6
Without Faith it is impossible to please God.

God created us for His own pleasure and He desires us to pray to Him and Him alone.

Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope; but Hope that is seen is not Hope; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

God loves it when we persist in prayer with Hope and Faith, even when things aren't working out at the moment. The decision to trust in God despite bad things happening is precious in His sight.

If predestination is correct then the conditions of our hearts are ultimately premeditated. How then could God derive pleasure from Faith-inspired prayer? Isn't it through the perseverance of His children in prayer that he derives pleasure from our prayers?

You said the word "we" several times.

The Bible separates the world into THREE (3) GROUPS of people.
I wonder which group you mean by the word "we"

(a) the saved "wheat" in the Christian Kingdom or
(b) the unsaved "tares" in the Christian Kingdom or
(c) the lost souls OUTSIDE the Kingdom, such as; Jews, Moslems, Buddhists,
Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, Pagans, etc.

And predestination is correct.... all souls after Adam and Eve are born DEAD.
That is about as "predestinated" as possible. Fortunately, God provided a Savior
for those He elected to save.

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[friend of]

And predestination is correct.... all souls after Adam and Eve are born DEAD.
That is about as "predestinated" as possible. Fortunately, God provided a Savior
for those He elected to save.

That's an interesting way to see it, but I'm not sure how it's connected to what I posted.

Wouldn't electing the wheat remove the fruit of faith that God desires from his children? God would just end up being faithful to Himself, since he'd be forcing these elect to have such faith.

 

[5thKingdom]

That's an interesting way to see it, but I'm not sure how it's connected to what I posted.

Wouldn't electing the wheat remove the fruit of faith that God desires from his children? God would just end up being faithful to Himself, since he'd be forcing these elect to have such faith.

That is not an "interesting way to see it...."
Instead, that is the Gospel.

As to your question, I suggest you read the following:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him
that calleth Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee
up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the
earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he
hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath
resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel
unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath,
and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted
to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the
vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he
hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



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[friend of]

So then how do you reconcile that with free will?

 

[friend of]

Those quotes can be interpreted as concessions for God's Sovereign will in those circumstances. The Reformationist application of predestination should exclude other wills such as Sovereign Decree (aka) God's Moral Will, because they would be redundant.

 

[friend of]

Also you still haven't addressed what I outlined in my post.

 

[5thKingdom]

So then how do you reconcile that with free will?

Of course we all have "free will" to choose to wear black socks or white socks today.
But the Bible teaches that our soul is DEAD. There is not "free will" to salvation.
The Bible teaches that NO MAN will seek after God.. no, not one.

Instead, salvation is a sovereign gift of Grace. It involves no "works" on our part,
including a "decision" or an "acceptance". The Bible is clear that any repentance,
(that would include a "decision" or an "acceptance") is the RESULT of regeneration
and not the CAUSE of it.

The Bible teaches that NO MAN can come to Jesus unless the Father "draws" them and
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come"... and Jesus will lose NONE of them. The Bible
teaches election. In fact, when His disciples finally realized that Jesus taught salvation
was by election... MANY of them abandoned Him [John 6:65-66]

The doctrine of "free will" (unto salvation) is not taught in the Bible.




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[DeaconDean]

Predestination verses Faith.

Hum...

This gets kinda old, but...

In reference to "Christians", what are we predestinated to?

From the scriptures, we are "predestinated" to 3 things only:

"Conformity to the image of Christ" -Rom. 8:29; the "adoption of children by Christ to Himself" -Eph. 1:5, and "an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him" -Eph. 1:11

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Albion]

If predestination is correct then the conditions of our hearts are ultimately premeditated. How then could God derive pleasure from Faith-inspired prayer? Isn't it through the perseverance of His children in prayer that he derives pleasure from our prayers?

Sounds like a common misunderstanding of what is meant by "predestination."

The term does not mean that everything in life--thoughts, actions, decisions, everything you can name--is predetermined. We do have freedom and we exercise judgment in most things we do, such as whether to buy groceries today or not.

But coming to the Lord and being saved is essentially beyond our sin-dimmed intellectual abilities. THAT--to know God and have Faith in Christ--is what He gifts his Elect with...and we refer to his decision, made by Him before our births, as predestination.

 

[friend of]

We do have freedom and we exercise judgment in most things we do, such as whether to buy groceries today or not.

We can make decisions, they just don't matter compared to the ultimate decision, though.

But coming to the Lord and being saved is essentially beyond our sin-dimmed intellectual abilities.

Then how does coming to Him in Faith please Him if He is the one selecting those who will come to Faith?

 

[friend of]

The Bible teaches that NO MAN can come to Jesus unless the Father "draws" them and
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come"... and Jesus will lose NONE of them.

Yes, but we also have to respond to this drawing affirmatively.

James 4:8
Draw close to God and He will draw close to you, wash your hands you sinners, purify your hearts you double minded

Matthew 22:14
For many are invited, but few are chosen

The ones who make the decision to respond to God's drawing are the chosen.

 

[5thKingdom]

James 4:8
Draw close to God and He will draw close to you, wash your hands you sinners, purify your hearts you double minded

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners;
and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep:
let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Jas 4:10 Humble
yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


(1) Your FIRST mistake was not looking at the entire context of the passage.

(2) Your SECOND mistake was assuming that the ACTIONS in the passage are things
that can be done BEFORE regeneration. They are not. Since we know that REPENTANCE
is the RESULT of regeneration and not the CAUSE of it.... we can also know that the actions
in the passage (submitting, resisting, fleeing, drawing to God, purifying your heart, humbling)
are actions that cannot be done unless God has already "indwelt" you.

(3) Your THIRD mistake is not understanding if you insist that repentance is the CAUSE
of regeneration (instead of he RESULT) of regeneration.... you have a "works gospel"

(4) Your FOURTH mistake is not understanding WHO the passage is written to.
It is written to the elect.... the saved "wheat" in the church. It is not written to the "tares"
who call themselves Christian... and it's not written to those OUTSIDE the Kingdom, such as
Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, Pagans, etc, etc,

Again... the passage was not written to people who REJECT CHRIST and
the passage was not written to the unsaved "tares" who will spend eternity
in torment with those who REJECT the Gospel.... the passage was ONLY
written to the saved "wheat/sheep" Christ came to "seek and save".
DUH!

(5) Your primary mistake is not understanding that you cannot even pretend to understand
the meaning of a passage unless/until you can HARMONIZE your theory with ALL RELATED
Scriptures. Since we have a TON of passages that teach repentance is the RESULT of being
"born again" (and not the CAUSE of it) we can immediately see your the PREMISE of your
post is not Biblical.

In other words, when your presupposition is based on the heresy of a "works gospel"
then you will never find "harmony of Scripture" and you will never find Biblical Truth.
You will only find contradictions and confusion. Nothing new here.


Jim


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[Albion]

We can make decisions, they just don't matter compared to the ultimate decision, though.



Then how does coming to Him in Faith please Him if He is the one selecting those who will come to Faith?

If you've groomed an unruly child to behave and reflect well on the family, is that not pleasing merely because it required some educating of him?

 

[5thKingdom]

How does coming to Him in Faith please Him if He is the one selecting those who will come to Faith?

Ask yourself the same question about Jesus.
How could Jesus "please Him" by being faithful?
You do know that Jesus "pleased" the Father.... right?


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[friend of]

If you've groomed an unruly child to behave and reflect well on the family, is that not pleasing merely because it required some educating of him?

Thank you, this is just the kind of response I was looking for.

Your SECOND mistake was assuming that the ACTIONS in the passage are things
that can be done BEFORE regeneration

Not entirely. One can still be regenerated and quench the Holy Spirit.

Your THIRD mistake is not understanding if you insist that repentance is the CAUSE
of regeneration

I have made no such claim. Edit: actually, Repentance (Justification) IS accepting Jesus' blood atonement for our sins, and the Holy Spirit begins regenerating our new heart from that moment on. So yes, if we're using the word "regeneration" interchangeably with "sanctification" it is certainly a process that is preceeded by believing in Christ's atonement.

It is written to the elect.... the saved "wheat" in the church. It is not written to the "tares"
who call themselves Christian

Okay so, what I'm getting from this is that, the decisions we make can bring us either closer to God in this life or further should we choose to not submit totally to God after regeneration.

Since we have a TON of passages that teach repentance is the RESULT of being
"born again" (and not the CAUSE of it) we can immediately see your the PREMISE of your
post is not Biblical.

No, I'm completely familiar with this and agree with it. However, I feel compelled to continue a specific line of questioning here because that's what I do when I study. I don't just ask 1 person and then get an answer and go "Welp, that settles it" as that would be foolish. I use one coat of paint, then another, the another and another until I've asked what I've been trying to ask in a variety of different ways to a variety of different people. Until the little voice that prompts my asking is satisfied to harmonize all of these answers to produce a more clarified line of questioning.

In any case, it is by grace through faith that we are saved, so that no one can boast.

My question is (and please don't give me the reach around again)

Romans 8:24
How can Hope be Hope at all if it is thrust upon a man by God? How can God delight in the Hope of a man if it is God Himself who is fully responsible that the man possesses any shred of Hope at all in this relationship?

[ii]Is God more pleased when we respond to His calling with an obedient spirit or is God more pleased when He makes us respond with an obedient spirit?

And please keep in mind what I said about the paint. Thanks!

 

[friend of]

Ask yourself the same question about Jesus.
How could Jesus "please Him" by being faithful?
You do know that Jesus "pleased" the Father.... right?

This in no way applies to Jesus as He is God.

 

[5thKingdom]

In any case, it is by grace through faith that we are saved, so that no one can boast.

My question is (and please don't give me the reach around again)
Is God more pleased when we respond to His calling with an obedient spirit
or is God more pleased when He makes us respond with an obedient spirit?

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Since the starting point is that:
(a) After Adam, all men are born spiritually DEAD and
(b) The only way to avoid eternal torment is to receive the faith OF Christ
which comes with the "indwelling" Holy Spirit of God...

Then the ending point is that God is pleased with the WORK of Jesus
in saving ALL of His Sheep. And God is pleased that NONE of the sheep are lost.

BTW... God is well aware that NO MAN deserves to be saved.
So it's to His Glory that God is pleased that ANY MAN is saved.

BTW2... you are mistaken if you think that regeneration is an option for the elect.
You contradict yourself whenever you suggest that regeneration can be rejected.
The Bible does not teach such a notion for the "wheat/sheep". That is a heresy.

The idea that a man can be "born again" with God's "indwelling" Spirit,
and then be FORSAKEN by God... is a notion not taught in the Bible.
It is a false interpretation (or some "leaven") taught by the "tares".

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1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
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Remember, the Bible separates the world into three (3) groups:
(a) the saved "wheat/sheep" in the "Kingdom of Heaven" and
(b) the unsaved "tares/goats" in the "Kingdom of Heaven" and
(c) the lost souls OUTSIDE the Kingdom... like Jews, Moslems,
Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, Pagans, etc.



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[friend of]

(b) the unsaved "tares/goats" in the "Kingdom of Heaven" and

Are these not those who were called but rejected the offer of Salvation through Christ?

If not, then what separates (b) from (c)?

 

[5thKingdom]

This in no way applies to Jesus as He is God.

Read my words again....

Ask yourself the same question about Jesus.
How could Jesus "please Him" by being faithful?
You do know that Jesus "pleased" the Father.... right?

You do realize that Jesus is NOT the Father.... right?


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