Predestination v Free Will

[ByTheSpirit]

so I am sure this has been hashed and again about a million times. But it is fun to talk about. The issue is the pride men have in refusing to acknowledge they may be wrong. So let's discuss in humility.

PREDESTINATION
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5, 11‬ ‭ESV‬‬

FREE WILL
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."” ‭‭Joshua‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭ESV

So I have laid out a couple scriptures purporting to support each view. What do you think?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

My thought is this:

God knows all things. He can see into the future and know who will and will not accept him. This in his knowledge he has predestined those whom he knew would accept his message. This does not negate free will, as it merely states God knows who will accept him.

God clearly wants all people to be saved. So either his will is unable to do as it pleases. Or all people will be saved regardless of faith (Universalism) Or there is another aspect at play here.

God reaches out to all people in love. Each person must respond to the call. God in his foreknowledge knew who would respond and thus the person has been "foreknown and predestined".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

My thought is this:

God knows all things. He can see into the future and know who will and will not accept him. This in his knowledge he has predestined those whom he knew would accept his message. This does not negate free will, as it merely states God knows who will accept him.

God clearly wants all people to be saved. So either his will is unable to do as it pleases. Or all people will be saved regardless of faith (Universalism) Or there is another aspect at play here.

God reaches out to all people in love. Each person must respond to the call. God in his foreknowledge knew who would respond and thus the person has been "foreknown and predestined".

You are making a few assumptions there. so it will be impossible to discuss this with you unless you are the first to humble yourself and admit you might be wrong, as you recommended in the OP.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Ahhh but what if you are wrong?

You haven't even presented your thoughts here for me to consider? So how can you judge me as needing to be humble before you know how I will respond? Seems rather presumptuous to me. Think about that.

 

[HenryM]

I won't debate this back and forth, here's just a view on what "foreknowing" means.

It's the same meaning from "Adam knew Eve his wife and she conceived..." (Genesis 4:1) or when Jesus says "Get away, I never knew you." Knowing means intimate relationship. Obviously, not exclusively sexual relationship, but intimate, loving relationship. When two people know each other in deep loving way. (By the way, although newer translations changed "Adam knew Eve" into "Adam made love to Eve", original Hebrew word is "knew".)

Can Jesus tell anyone "I never knew you", since Jesus, God, knows everything and everyone? Yes, in what would seem a symbolic way. On the other hand, He can literally say to those He didn't have a loving relationship with that He never knew them, meaning, He never had a loving relationship with them.

So, foreknew, as it seems, probably means same loving relationship, in advance. God, in His power, can start having loving relationship with whom He chooses, even before He creates them.

Again, this is not critical for predestination, and common understanding of "foreknew" can suffice. But I think "foreknew" in this context is hardly a type of intelectual knowledge.

 

[Albion]

My thought is this:

God knows all things. He can see into the future and know who will and will not accept him. This in his knowledge he has predestined those whom he knew would accept his message. This does not negate free will, as it merely states God knows who will accept him.

God clearly wants all people to be saved. So either his will is unable to do as it pleases. Or all people will be saved regardless of faith (Universalism) Or there is another aspect at play here.

God reaches out to all people in love. Each person must respond to the call. God in his foreknowledge knew who would respond and thus the person has been "foreknown and predestined".

No. That approach to harmonizing free will with predestination has been attempted by many people, but it doesn't work.

That's because predestination does not mean God planning to save those whom he already knows will, of their free will, choose him. That's not pre-DESTINING anyone at all. It's just prior knowledge (which we all agree he has).

 

[WilliamBo]

I have pondered this topic a lot... and the Bible supports both views- only the deep wisdom of God knows things like this I feel. The bible talks about different types of "seed" in the OT and NT. If I am bad seed now, can I become good seed? And if I am good seed now, can i lose that and become bad seed? Can "seeds" change or are they born that way? Proverbs says wicked people are born liars, so clearly they were born that way, and in Romans 11 Paul is saying it's "possible" that God is the potter and makes certain "pots" for honorable use and some for dishonorable use, and who are we to argue with how He made us?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I could well be wrong in my assertion on post #2 and I grant that. I do not have deep theological knowledge on such topics as some have. But I know this, that God loves all people.

God loves the world
Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world
God desires all men to be saved
God desires all to come to repentance

If Calvinism is correct, why evangelize? Why pray at all? If God is just going to save who he will save then what is the point of doing anything? We are little more than robots then.

I obviously do not agree with Calvinism, but I really haven't heard a convincing argument about it.

I used to be cessationist, but am no longer.
I used to be KJO, but am no longer.

Point being is some have already accused me of pride and needing to humble myself before they know me or my intent. It is entirely possible to have a conversation without people being full of pride and get their feelings all ramped up. I only mention it in my OP because I know the tendency around CF of people refusing to accept they could be wrong on topics.

I acknowledge I may be, but have no interest on one sided conversations where those who argue only want to accept their views and no one else.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Ahhh but what if you are wrong?

You haven't even presented your thoughts here for me to consider? So how can you judge me as needing to be humble before you know how I will respond? Seems rather presumptuous to me. Think about that.

Wow! I am just quoting you! "The issue is the pride men have in refusing to acknowledge they may be wrong. So let's discuss in humility."

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I could well be wrong in my assertion on post #2 and I grant that. I do not have deep theological knowledge on such topics as some have. But I know this, that God loves all people.

God loves the world
Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world
God desires all men to be saved
God desires all to come to repentance

If Calvinism is correct, why evangelize? Why pray at all? If God is just going to save who he will save then what is the point of doing anything? We are little more than robots then.

I obviously do not agree with Calvinism, but I really haven't heard a convincing argument about it.

I used to be cessationist, but am no longer.
I used to be KJO, but am no longer.

Point being is some have already accused me of pride and needing to humble myself before they know me or my intent. It is entirely possible to have a conversation without people being full of pride and get their feelings all ramped up. I only mention it in my OP because I know the tendency around CF of people refusing to accept they could be wrong on topics.

I acknowledge I may be, but have no interest on one sided conversations where those who argue only want to accept their views and no one else.

Filled with assumptions. You leave no room for discussion.

 

[zippy2006]

If Calvinism is correct, why evangelize? Why pray at all? If God is just going to save who he will save then what is the point of doing anything? We are little more than robots then.

Oh dear, you're pointing out the logical conclusion of Calvinism. Calvinists don't like it when people do that. They will say, "You don't understand Calvinism!"

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Oh dear, you're pointing out the logical conclusion of Calvinism. Calvinists don't like it when people do that. They will say, "You don't understand Calvinism!"

Calvinists don't like it when people who understand nothing about the doctrines create straw men.

The reason why we evangelize is that God has commanded us to. That's first and foremost. The reason that He asks us to is that He uses *means* to accomplish His work. The proclamation of the gospel is done by men, and we are to proclaim this message to the ends of the earth, yet we, as all people leave the result in the hands of God. Very simple.

 

[Albion]

I could well be wrong in my assertion on post #2 and I grant that. I do not have deep theological knowledge on such topics as some have. But I know this, that God loves all people.

God loves the world
Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world
God desires all men to be saved
God desires all to come to repentance

If Calvinism is correct, why evangelize? Why pray at all? If God is just going to save who he will save then what is the point of doing anything? We are little more than robots then.

Again, that is not fair to Calvinism, which is not to say that you are determined to be hostile. I've heard from others on many occasions saying what you said here.

God did not make robots. We have free will except when it comes to accepting God, who is far outside our intellectual abilities. We can come to him only if he makes that possible. The point I'm getting at is that (as the Bible indicates) we come to faith through the word. According to Calvinists, receptivity to it is a gift. Some people can read it forever and not be persuaded a bit. But for others, it's eye-opening. But who is to bring the Gospel to others? Why it's believers, of course. Or we could say, the saved.

Point being is some have already accused me of pride and needing to humble myself before they know me or my intent.

I'm not seeing that in your posts here.

 

[zippy2006]

Calvinists don't like it when people who understand nothing about the doctrines create straw men.

The reason why we evangelize is that God has commanded us to. That's first and foremost. The reason that He asks us to is that He uses *means* to accomplish His work. The proclamation of the gospel is done by men, and we are to proclaim this message to the ends of the earth, yet we, as all people leave the result in the hands of God. Very simple.

Do the baptized have free will?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Do the baptized have free will?

All people have free will.

 

[zippy2006]

All people have free will.

It is dishonest to claim that we have free will and, at the same time, that every one of our acts is fully determined by our nature and the desires flowing from that nature. For the Calvinist, for each act undertaken by a human, they absolutely could not have acted otherwise than they did in fact act. Determinism is not freedom.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

For the Calvinist, for each act undertaken by a human, they absolutely could not have acted otherwise than they did in fact act.

You are 0 for 2. Wrong again, I'm afraid.

 

[zippy2006]

You are 0 for 2. Wrong again, I'm afraid.

And you are deceitful.

But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labor under manifold delusion, making a heterogeneous mixture of inspired doctrine and philosophical opinions, and so erring as to both. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 15, Paragraph 8)

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin,Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6). Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)

How few are there who, when they hear free will attributed to man, do not immediately imagine that he is the master of his mind and will in such a sense, that he can of himself incline himself either to good or evil? It may be said that such dangers are removed by carefully expounding the meaning to the people. But such is the proneness of the human mind to go astray, that it will more quickly draw error from one little word, than truth from a lengthened discourse. Of this, the very term in question [free will] furnishes too strong a proof…I think the abolition of it would be of great advantage to the Church. I am unwilling to use it myself; and others, if they will take my advice, will do well to abstain from it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 2, Paragraphs 7-8)

We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 8)​

 

[com7fy8]

So I have laid out a couple scriptures purporting to support each view. What do you think?

I think Romans chapter nine goes further than just saying God chooses whom He will save. Verse 21, to me, means He is in total control of how each person comes out. A potter as full control over his clay, and the same clay can be used to make items with exact opposite functions.

His purpose decides

But we experience having free wills; we experience making choices. But we see how what Joseph's brothers did to him turned out to be for God's purpose > Genesis 37-50.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And you are deceitful.

But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labor under manifold delusion, making a heterogeneous mixture of inspired doctrine and philosophical opinions, and so erring as to both. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 15, Paragraph 8)

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin,Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6). Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)

How few are there who, when they hear free will attributed to man, do not immediately imagine that he is the master of his mind and will in such a sense, that he can of himself incline himself either to good or evil? It may be said that such dangers are removed by carefully expounding the meaning to the people. But such is the proneness of the human mind to go astray, that it will more quickly draw error from one little word, than truth from a lengthened discourse. Of this, the very term in question [free will] furnishes too strong a proof…I think the abolition of it would be of great advantage to the Church. I am unwilling to use it myself; and others, if they will take my advice, will do well to abstain from it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 2, Paragraphs 7-8)

We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 8)​

Please don't call me names.

What's you point from the quote?