Predestination v Free Will

[jimmyjimmy]

I think Romans chapter nine goes further than just saying God chooses whom He will save. Verse 21, to me, means He is in total control of how each person comes out. A potter as full control over his clay, and the same clay can be used to make items with exact opposite functions.

His purpose decides

But we experience having free wills; we experience making choices. But we see how what Joseph's brothers did to him turned out to be for God's purpose > Genesis 37-50.

Yes. The story of Joseph is a great one to explain how God is sovereign, yet man responsible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All people have free will.

You are not a regular Calvinist then. I'm surprised they are not coming to stone you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

And you are deceitful.

But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labor under manifold delusion, making a heterogeneous mixture of inspired doctrine and philosophical opinions, and so erring as to both. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 15, Paragraph 8)

We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin,Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6). Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)

How few are there who, when they hear free will attributed to man, do not immediately imagine that he is the master of his mind and will in such a sense, that he can of himself incline himself either to good or evil? It may be said that such dangers are removed by carefully expounding the meaning to the people. But such is the proneness of the human mind to go astray, that it will more quickly draw error from one little word, than truth from a lengthened discourse. Of this, the very term in question [free will] furnishes too strong a proof…I think the abolition of it would be of great advantage to the Church. I am unwilling to use it myself; and others, if they will take my advice, will do well to abstain from it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 2, Paragraphs 7-8)

We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 8)​

Oh, this is good. This is going in my Calvinism information. The last sentence is the best and the one I will use over and over from now on, because they will deny that one til the cows come home.

And now I say "Moo".

 

[zippy2006]

Please don't call me names.

Then do not dishonestly deny the necessity that Calvin so plainly affirms.

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (ibid. 258)​

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Then do not dishonestly deny the necessity that Calvin so plainly affirms.

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (ibid. 258)​

Which in effect means God is responsible for evil in such a view. A statement wholly unqualified in scripture.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So I have laid out a couple scriptures purporting to support each view. What do you think?

Why lay it out as if it is "EITHER/ OR" instead of both ,
when understood ?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Why lay it out as if it is "EITHER/ OR" instead of both ,
when understood ?

I didn't mean it to come across that way if it did. My apologies

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Which in effect means God is responsible for evil in such a view. A statement wholly unqualified in scripture.

Not really, if HOW GOD is responsible for evil is understood as GOD SAYS.

i.e. English/Western thought is very poor describing YHWH'S WAY compared to Hebrew / Israeli language and perspective,
and greek made things much much worse, btw.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I didn't mean it to come across that way if it did. My apologies

No worries really- just 'exploring' and read through the op quickly, and did not read other posts so far....

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Not really, if HOW GOD is responsible for evil is understood as GOD SAYS.

i.e. English/Western thought is very poor describing YHWH'S WAY compared to Hebrew / Israeli language and perspective,
and greek made things much much worse, btw.

If God is responsible for the way every human being acts and man has no free will whatsoever as Calvinism dictates, then yes, God is responsible for evil. For it is his will that man act in such a way

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If God is responsible for the way every human being acts and man has no free will whatsoever as Calvinism dictates, then yes, God is responsible for evil. For it is his will that man act in such a way

Woah! Slow way way down....
if you want to expose Calvinism, that is easy to do, but I don't think that's the purpose of your OP / this thread.

i.e. leave Calvinism out of it to be able to carry on a useful conversation here....

 

[ByTheSpirit]

If I have understood some here correctly there appears to be a hybrid-Calvinist camp where mankind does not have free will in regards to salvation but does have free will thereafter. Is that a correct statement?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Then do not dishonestly deny the necessity that Calvin so plainly affirms.

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (ibid. 258)​

Does that say that men don't have a will, and are not responsible for their actions?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Woah! Slow way way down....
if you want to expose Calvinism, that is easy to do, but I don't think that's the purpose of your OP / this thread.

i.e. leave Calvinism out of it to be able to carry on a useful conversation here....

It was brought up, but you are right I should leave that out of the discussion.

 

[zippy2006]

Does that say that men don't have a will, and are not responsible for their actions?

Actually yes, it does, but let's take one issue at a time.

What it undoubtedly implies is the idea you reject here, that, "For each act undertaken by a human, they absolutely could not have acted otherwise than they did in fact act." If something is necessary then it could not have been otherwise.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If God is responsible for the way every human being acts

Perhaps no one ever has even a fraction of the influence God has
on the way every human being acts throughout history,
but that is very different from >>

God is responsible for evil.

Rather, I think in HIS WORD (THE BIBLE), God describes in various ways HIS responsibility for what happens,
including when HE SENDS an angel of death, or angels of death and destruction,
which men on earth might often call "evil",
yet YHWH (GOD) remains perfectly RIGHTEOUS in JUDGMENT and PERFECT in EVERY WAY as HE says of Himself in His Word which is true without spot or wrinkle .... (no iniquity at all)....

For it is his will that man act in such a way

YHWH sent His Son Yeshua to DIE, horribly, suffering, crucified....
so that
men may choose NOT to act "in such a way".....

 

[zippy2006]

Which in effect means God is responsible for evil in such a view. A statement wholly unqualified in scripture.

Calvin is even more explicit on that topic:

…how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)​

If I have understood some here correctly there appears to be a hybrid-Calvinist camp where mankind does not have free will in regards to salvation but does have free will thereafter. Is that a correct statement?

I don't think so. Calvinists teach that every human act is necessitated but not coerced. That is, the human nature and inclinations fully determine each act, but because the nature and inclinations are realities internal to the human being, we are not externally coerced. The necessity flows from within us rather than from without. Some Calvinists think this counts as free will and some don't, but their difference lies not in what they believe but rather what to call it.

Calvinists believe acts are necessitated, that we could not have done otherwise in acting as we did. According to the common definition of free will, that's a rather clear rejection.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Actually yes, it does

How?

 

[com7fy8]

The story of Joseph is a great one to explain how God is sovereign, yet man responsible.

And, of course, Jesus being crucified but then resurrected is an example of how God is in control.

Plus, we do have Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego If this report is true, then God had such perfect control of the flames and smoke of a fiery furnace

So, then, there is the issue of why God does not just get rid of any and all evil. The Bible does not give a direct and simple explanation about this. But I have ideas based on various scriptures I have read.

Ephesians 2:2

Romans 9:21

2 Timothy 2:20-21

God makes vessels for honor and for dishonor, then He uses them for His purposes.

We will reap what we have been sowing > Galatians 6:7-8. Then whatever we become full of will decide where we go > with it to where it is going.

There will be the new earth in resurrectional glory, and the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. And fire will be needed to control and contain all that toxic filth of nasty selfish anger and arguing and unforgiveness and bitterness and lusts of preference for pleasure and stress and worry and stubbornness and excuse making.

We all have experienced how stubborn this stuff is, and so is the nasty spirit it is coming from. Only fire can control Satan; he is so stubborn. And we have >

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

Again - - - we see how God has control > fire has more control than trash and sewage have. The spirit of evil is not in control, but on its way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. And so it is wise to not be a sewer bucket of its nasty and negative and naughty stuff.

Instead, we can be vessels of living and loving refreshing water >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

This says that the "beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit" is "incorruptible". To me @jimmyjimmy "incorruptible" means that this beauty of God's gentle and quiet love has almighty immunity against being corrupted by nasty and negative stuff of wrong anger and unforgiveness and hurts and bitterness and complaining and arguing and boredom and loneliness and other anti-love things which degrade people. So, if God's love can give us such immunity against sin-sick things, this is a good way for God to be in control

And how well have our human "free wills" been doing to choose to not give in to such sin-sick things????????

 

[zippy2006]

How?

Like I said in my last, I am only willing to take one issue at a time. Are you willing and able, with all that humility you profess to possess, to admit that your objection in this post contradicts John Calvin's belief in necessity?

You often say something, do not support it, receive a challenge on that thing, and then ignore the challenge and run onto the next topic. That's what you're doing here. I'm not going to entertain new topics until you address the challenge.