Predestination questions.

[tobethebest]

I would appreciate insight to the verses in Romans 8:29-30. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethern. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Can this be read as saying "some"....in other words, whom He foreknew, "some" He also predestinated, whom He predestinated "some" He called, whom He called "some" He justified, and whom He justified "some" He also glorified?

Not all people who hear the word of God are saved. But if they are saved, then are they justified? Does that mean that God had foreknowledge of those who would accept Christ and with that, they are predestined, called, justified, and glorified? If so, why doesn't it say in the scripture that whom He foreknew "all" of them are predestined, and so on. Not "all" who hear the scriptures give their lives to Christ, so just because they heard the word doesn't mean they are saved. The seqence here should be saved, foreknowledge, called, justified, sanctified, and then glorified. I don't know why the word "sanctified" isn't used here.

Can anyone give me a clear understanding of these two scriptures. Does this speak of "some" or "all" those who hear God's word? Does salvation = glorification. Please understand that I do believe in "once saved - always saved" whether the person later in life promotes or demotes a certain type of lifestyle. If we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts that Christ was raised from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Thank you Jesus.

 

[A New Dawn]

I suppose it depends on who you talk to.

I, myself, believe that "some" cannot be inserted into the verse. I agree that not everyone who hears the word of God are saved. I believe that the reason for that is that there are two calls. An external call (the preaching or reading of the word) and an internal call (which Christ referred to as "ears to hear"). Those who have been given ears to hear, will hear and respond.

So if someone is given ears to hear, they hear and respond and are justified. And then as the scripture you quoted says, being justified, they will be glorified.

Salvation is an ongoing process. It can be summed up like this.

Justification - past tense of salvation. You are saved from the penalty of sin.
Sanctification - present tense of salvation. You are being saved from the power of sin.
Glorification - future tense of salvation. You will be saved from the presence of sin.​

 

[tobethebest]

New Dawn - Is this something you have read? I believe exactly what you have written. I just wondered where you may have read it.

 

[A New Dawn]

The top part I believe is something that I feel that God led me to believe, the bottom part is something that I have heard so many times, I don't know if it is written down anywhere as part of a systematic theology. In fact, my pastor preached on it a couple of Sunday's back.

 

[Yahu]

I would appreciate insight to the verses in Romans 8:29-30. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethern. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Can this be read as saying "some"....in other words, whom He foreknew, "some" He also predestinated, whom He predestinated "some" He called, whom He called "some" He justified, and whom He justified "some" He also glorified?

Not all people who hear the word of God are saved. But if they are saved, then are they justified? Does that mean that God had foreknowledge of those who would accept Christ and with that, they are predestined, called, justified, and glorified? If so, why doesn't it say in the scripture that whom He foreknew "all" of them are predestined, and so on. Not "all" who hear the scriptures give their lives to Christ, so just because they heard the word doesn't mean they are saved. The seqence here should be saved, foreknowledge, called, justified, sanctified, and then glorified. I don't know why the word "sanctified" isn't used here.

Can anyone give me a clear understanding of these two scriptures. Does this speak of "some" or "all" those who hear God's word? Does salvation = glorification. Please understand that I do believe in "once saved - always saved" whether the person later in life promotes or demotes a certain type of lifestyle. If we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts that Christ was raised from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Thank you Jesus.

You need to understand the differences between Justification, Sanctification and Glorification. You also need to understand what foreknowledge is.

I see Yah as being outside of linear time. He is not bound in time as we are but at the beginning and the end. He KNOWS the outcome before it has occurred in our perspective of linear time.

Justification is the debt of our sin that was paid once on the cross. We are justified by our faith through grace by our action of salvation of the spirit, the one time rebirth of our spirit man when we become a 'new creation'.

Justification has to do with salvation of the spirit.

Sanctification is the process to overcome the error in our life to become more Christ-like. It is the spiritual maturity process that continues the rest of our life. That is also called salvation of the soul. It is the renewing of our mind to be made into His image. Scriptures about enduring to the end are about that salvation of our soul, not of the spirit.

Glorification is the eternal rewards we gain within the eternal kingdom. We get a glorified body at resurrection. That is the 'salvation of the body'. We are granted rewards based on how much error we overcome and how much heavenly riches we have accrued with our walk. Rev 2&3 gives a list of errors and rewards for those that overcome those errors of our congregation. It is a maturity scale. The errors and rewards are scaled from least to greatest with the least overcoming gaining entrance into the city with the right to eat of the tree of life. Those who overcome the last error are granted right of rulership within the throne room itself. That is part of our Glorification. Will we be naked or clothed in robes of righteousness? Will we shine like the stars or be in the 'outer darkness' (which would be better translated 'shade'). I understand that area to be those without any personal glory that are farthest from the throne of glory yet still in the kingdom. It is the back pew of heaven so to speak.

He foreknew us because He knows our heart and actions. He calls those that would follow Him and helps to lead us in the sanctification process to bring us to our glorification.

We will not all achieve the same level of glorification. That is based on your walk and how much error you overcome in your life.

I think you have the sequence out of order. He foreknew then we are called, some hear the call and are saved (salvation of the spirit) thereby Justified, then sanctified which results in our glorification. Our sanctification determines the level of glorification.

Now stating you don't believe in OSAS well neither do I exactly. We can renounce our salvation. Scripture does state that we can renounce Him due to persecution to save our life but loose our eternal life and He will renounce us before the Father but not having rooted all sin out of your life is NOT loss of salvation but a failure in the sanctification process that will effect our glorification level. So to claim grace and live in sin does have eternal consequences it just isn't a loss of salvation. It takes more then that to actual blaspheme the Holy Spirit and loose salvation.

Once you understand the glorification process and how there will be a great difference between the least and the greatest of saints within the kingdom, a lot of concepts fall right into place. We will each radiate the glory of the level of righteousness we achieve by becoming more Christ-like in our walk. Some will shine with great glory clothed in robes of righteousness holding great authority within the kingdom while others will be poor (reward wise), blind (blinded by the superior glory of others) and naked (lacking the robes of righteousness) confined to the outer walls of the heavenly city verses a mansion on the heights.

 

[Yahu]

New Dawn - Is this something you have read? I believe exactly what you have written. I just wondered where you may have read it.

Actually what I presented falls under the teachings of Marrowism as opposed to Calvinism or Armenianism.

 

[A New Dawn]

Actually what I presented falls under the teachings of Marrowism as opposed to Calvinism or Armenianism.

Actually, the scriptures state that those that are justified will be glorified. Not might be glorified.

Also, Christ says that He will save all that the Father gives him to save, and of those that the Father gave him to save, He will lose none. So either one cannot reject the gift, or they are not elect to begin with.

 

[Lethe]

Predestination is at odds with free will.

 

[A New Dawn]

Predestination is at odds with free will.

Yes, but the Bible still teaches predestination. It doesn't teach free-will (in the manner that Arminians believe it) anywhere.

 

[Yahu]

Predestination is at odds with free will.

But foreknowledge is not at odds.

 

[Yahu]

Yes, but the Bible still teaches predestination. It doesn't teach free-will (in the manner that Arminians believe it) anywhere.

Which is why I'm not Calvinist or Armenian but a Marrowist. Both sides are in error.

 

[A New Dawn]

Which is why I'm not Calvinist or Armenian but a Marrowist. Both sides are in error.

What is a marrowist?

ETA: If this is what you think Calvinists believe, then you don't know what Calvinists believe.

 

[Yahu]

Actually, the scriptures state that those that are justified will be glorified. Not might be glorified.

Yes it does but it does NOT state to what level of glory they will achieve. Scripture is clear that those that take part in the resurrection with shine with differing levels of glory as the stars differ.

We are each rewarded for our own actions. That is also clear in Rev.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Those that have the right to the tree of life are those that overcome the error in the 1st letter in Rev 2. You have to be an overcomer to be granted access to that tree of life. Those that don't overcome are not. That tree lines the streets of the city, they have not even made it past the inner gates of the walls. Are then confined to the outer walls of the city living on the walls of the city like Rahab the Harlot? What about those outside the walls themselves? They have been found guilty of abominations.

The problems you overcome determine how blessed you are and the level of that glorification. But remember even the least in the kingdom will be greater then John the Baptist was on the earth.

Living in sin claiming grace will not cause a loss of salvation but effect the level of your glorification. There will be low levels and high levels of glorification. Now just gained the glorified body in the resurrect and nothing else would be that lowest level.

We know to be great in the kingdom we are to be a servant here. What does that mean for those that attempt to rule here? How many big named ministers are going to be among the least of the kingdom? How much glory will those that spread false doctrine and lead many astray achieve?

The most basic form of glorification is entrance into the kingdom itself. That doesn't mean they will share the throne room like the overcomers of the Laodicean error. There are significant rewards for progressing in your sanctification process to achieve spiritual maturity.

Those that don't mature, don't store up their riches in heaven, don't overcome any of the errors will not have much in the eternal kingdom. They are not fit for a position of authority within that kingdom but I guess Heaven still needs its gardeners and janitors.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes it does but it does NOT state to what level of glory they will achieve. Scripture is clear that those that take part in the resurrection with shine with differing levels of glory as the stars differ.

We are each rewarded for our own actions. That is also clear in Rev.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Those that have the right to the tree of life are those that overcome the error in the 1st letter in Rev 2. You have to be an overcomer to be granted access to that tree of life. Those that don't overcome are not. That tree lines the streets of the city, they have not even made it past the inner gates of the walls. Are then confined to the outer walls of the city living on the walls of the city like Rahab the Harlot? What about those outside the walls themselves? They have been found guilty of abominations.

The problems you overcome determine how blessed you are and the level of that glorification. But remember even the least in the kingdom will be greater then John the Baptist was on the earth.

Living in sin claiming grace will not cause a loss of salvation but effect the level of your glorification. There will be low levels and high levels of glorification. Now just gained the glorified body in the resurrect and nothing else would be that lowest level.

We know to be great in the kingdom we are to be a servant here. What does that mean for those that attempt to rule here? How many big named ministers are going to be among the least of the kingdom? How much glory will those that spread false doctrine and lead many astray achieve?

The most basic form of glorification is entrance into the kingdom itself. That doesn't mean they will share the throne room like the overcomers of the Laodicean error. There are significant rewards for progressing in your sanctification process to achieve spiritual maturity.

Those that don't mature, don't store up their riches in heaven, don't overcome any of the errors will not have much in the eternal kingdom. They are not fit for a position of authority within that kingdom but I guess Heaven still needs its gardeners and janitors.

Salvation by works is not what the Bible teaches. You seem to be confusing sanctification with justification, or something. The verse you quote doesn't promote salvation by works, it promotes sanctification. The desire to work with the Holy Spirit to become more Christlike.

 

[Lethe]

Predestination is at odds with free will.

But foreknowledge is not at odds.

Thought experiment: A person has foreknowledge of their own future actions. In what sense, does this person then have the "free will," to change those actions? It is a paradox, so either foreknowledge is impossible or "free will," doesn't exist.

 

[Yahu]

What is a marrowist?

ETA: If this is what you think Calvinists believe, then you don't know what Calvinists believe.

Yah is not a puppet master in total control of our actions but granted dominion over the earth to man. There is a certain amount of free will in choosing to follow His guidance or not. The results effect our glorification level within the kingdom.

Marrowism is a balance between the extremes of Calvinism and Armenianism taking the good and rejecting the error.

It is a common tactic of the enemy to take the position of Yah, divide it into two polar extremes that battle each other. Each side sees the error of the opposite extreme but is blind to their own error. This is clearly presented in Galations. One camp is the 'greasy grace' camp claiming grace and living in the flesh while the opposite extreme is the Pharseeism of those in bondage to law while the middle ground is being led by the Spirit. Use the law as a teacher of righteousness and have the grace to cover our failures.

The extremes are the play ground of the enemy. The same is true of Calvinism and Armenianism. Of course both sides battle each other as well as anyone not on their own extreme. Morrowism is that center ground between those extremes.

Also the total depravity of man is non-sense. Adam didn't eat from the tree of evil but from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. None of us will chose good all the time and all fall short. That doesn't imply we will always chose evil without Yah pulling our strings.

 

[Yahu]

Thought experiment: A person has foreknowledge of their own future actions. In what sense, does this person then have the "free will," to change those actions? It is a paradox, so either foreknowledge is impossible or "free will," doesn't exist.

You are implying that the foreknowledge is known by the same individual with that free will. I am saying Yah has foreknowledge of our free will choices.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yah is not a puppet master in total control of our actions but granted dominion over the earth to man. There is a certain amount of free will in choosing to follow His guidance or not. The results effect our glorification level within the kingdom.

Marrowism is a balance between the extremes of Calvinism and Armenianism taking the good and rejecting the error.

It is a common tactic of the enemy to take the position of Yah, divide it into two polar extremes that battle each other. Each side sees the error of the opposite extreme but is blind to their own error. This is clearly presented in Galations. One camp is the 'greasy grace' camp claiming grace and living in the flesh while the opposite extreme is the Pharseeism of those in bondage to law while the middle ground is being led by the Spirit. Use the law as a teacher of righteousness and have the grace to cover our failures.

The extremes are the play ground of the enemy. The same is true of Calvinism and Armenianism. Of course both sides battle each other as well as anyone not on their own extreme. Morrowism is that center ground between those extremes.

Also the total depravity of man is non-sense. Adam didn't eat from the tree of evil but from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. None of us will chose good all the time and all fall short. That doesn't imply we will always chose evil without Yah pulling our strings.

I looked it up and it says that Marrowism is very similar to Amyrauldism. You seem to be promoting something different. Something to do with works-based salvation.

The problem with believing in free will is that we don't have free will the same way Adam had it. The fall of man affected us, it affected the world we live in. Adam walked and talked with God, and still rebelled. How much more so do we rebel, not having walked and talked with God? You, and all the free-willers, purport that we can make these awesome choices, but how can we do that when Adam couldn't even do it, without a fallen nature.

Here is our "free will". We are free to choose within our nature. Fallen chooses fallen. It is not till we are regenerated and God's spirit is a part of us that we can begin to choose from a higher nature.

 

[Lethe]

You are implying that the foreknowledge is known by the same individual with that free will. I am saying Yah has foreknowledge of our free will choices.

The same paradox applies to any 3rd parties with foreknowledge: In what sense does Yah have free will if his foreknowledge cannot be revealed to another party?

 

[Yahu]

Salvation by works is not what the Bible teaches. You seem to be confusing sanctification with justification, or something. The verse you quote doesn't promote salvation by works, it promotes sanctification. The desire to work with the Holy Spirit to become more Christlike.

I fully understand the difference between Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

I do NOT suggest any form of salvation by works. It is a free gift based on faith through grace. Glorification is based on works of our sanctification process to become more Christlike. For example, studying scripture is a work! It will effect your spiritual growth.

Where did you get a salvation by works idea from what I posted? It pertains to Glorification NOT salvation. Works don't get you into the kingdom but will effect your position within that kingdom for all eternity.

You have to understand the salvation of the spirit verse salvation of the soul and the salvation of the body.

Justification = salvation of the spirit.
Sanctification = salvation of the soul
Glorification = salvation of the body and the rewards of sanctification determining our position within the kingdom

If you think just because you are one of the elect and have salvation that means you will be granted a great level of glory within the kingdom you are sadly mistaken. We are called to be kings and priests but that is only the top level overcomers that achieve those status. I suggest you study Rev 2&3.

I find that most hard core Calvinist don't get past the 1st error listed. The question is will you be poor, blind and naked in the eternal kingdom or will you share the throne room? Will you be in the 'outer darkness' (better translated as 'shade'), or a juror, judge, counselor, ruler over nations, priest or a king within that kingdom or will you be outside the walls with those in abominations. That is what is at stake with your spiritual growth process and becoming more Christlike with our sanctification process.

A Calvinist that thinks Yah is going to do it all for them is in for a rude surprise. Calvinist don't understand glorification for the most part. Calvinism reject the free will choices that determine that glorification level.