Predestination questions.

[Yahu]

I looked it up and it says that Marrowism is very similar to Amyrauldism. You seem to be promoting something different. Something to do with works-based salvation.

Sorry but that is an absolute misconception on your part!

 

[Yahu]

Calvinism's TULIP
T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited Atonement
I - Irresistible Faith
P - Perseverance of the Saints

Armenian's PEARS
P - Prevalent Grace
E - Election on Condition
A - Atonement for All
R - Resistible Grace
S - Salvation through Perseverance

Marrowism's GRAPE
G - Gift is Free
R - Rewards are Earned
A - Absolute Assurance
P - Passive Persuasion
E - Eternal Security

 

[A New Dawn]

I fully understand the difference between Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

I do NOT suggest any form of salvation by works. It is a free gift based on faith through grace. Glorification is based on works of our sanctification process to become more Christlike. For example, studying scripture is a work! It will effect your spiritual growth.

Where did you get a salvation by works idea from what I posted? It pertains to Glorification NOT salvation. Works don't get you into the kingdom but will effect your position within that kingdom for all eternity.

You have to understand the salvation of the spirit verse salvation of the soul and the salvation of the body.

Justification = salvation of the spirit.
Sanctification = salvation of the soul
Glorification = salvation of the body and the rewards of sanctification determining our position within the kingdom

If you think just because you are one of the elect and have salvation that means you will be granted a great level of glory within the kingdom you are sadly mistaken. We are called to be kings and priests but that is only the top level overcomers that achieve those status. I suggest you study Rev 2&3.

I find that most hard core Calvinist don't get past the 1st error listed. The question is will you be poor, blind and naked in the eternal kingdom or will you share the throne room? Will you be in the 'outer darkness' (better translated as 'shade'), or a juror, judge, counselor, ruler over nations, priest or a king within that kingdom or will you be outside the walls with those in abominations. That is what is at stake with your spiritual growth process and becoming more Christlike with our sanctification process.

A Calvinist that thinks Yah is going to do it all for them is in for a rude surprise. Calvinist don't understand glorification for the most part. Calvinism reject the free will choices that determine that glorification level.

I find most of what you are purporting to be unsupported by the Bible. When Christ died on the cross, he said "It is finished". Either it is finished, or he was a liar. If Christ doesn't have what it takes for salvation to be attained, why would He tell us to put faith in him? Your assumption that justification is just a step through the door and works will take us to the throne is just not supported. The most that is supported is that our works will earn us crowns which we will cast at Jesus' feet. There is nothing to support that works will be the determining factor of where we stand (or sit) in the kingdom.

 

[A New Dawn]

Sorry but that is an absolute misconception on your part!

It is most definitely a works-based theology if justification is just the doorway to the kingdom and we need works to get close to the throne. Works sanctify us, but they don't determine where we will spend eternity. Romans is clear that those who are justified will be glorified.

 

[Yahu]

I find most of what you are purporting to be unsupported by the Bible. When Christ died on the cross, he said "It is finished". Either it is finished, or he was a liar.

So you want to argue over what 'It' means?

The high priest that sent Yeshua to be crucified said 'It is finished' when he killed the last sacrifice, the national lamb for Passover on the day of preparation. That was part of the ritual for the high priest. At the same time Yeshua was on the cross saying 'It is Finished' as our high priest. The last sacrifice was finished.

Yes we were JUSTIFIED at that time. The debt for our sin was paid. That is what Justification means. We accept that gift through faith by grace. That GRACE is a gift, not the faith. You have to go into the Greek and see the gender alignment of the words to determine which is the gift of God. It can't be determined in the English translation. We have to have our own faith. That is where Calvinism is so screwed up. They make everything a work of Yah and remove all accountability of the individual.

The 'A' in GRAPE is 'absolute assurance' that the work on the cross is all that was needed for our salvation and it is assured. We don't have to maintain that salvation in any way. It is a FREE GIFT. It is the rewards of the kingdom that are earned, the 'R' in GRAPE. ONLY the rewards require works and our works are judged as wood, hay, stubble or silver and gold. Those that are works of the flesh don't pass the fires of testing.

How is that a doctrine of works salvation? Are you confusing sanctification with salvation. The salvation of the spirit is a one time event when we accept Yeshua's justification for our sins and we become a new creation. Our spirit man is then alive. We have to grow from a spiritual baby and renew our mind, our soul to conform to become more Christlike. That salvation of the soul is a life long process and we endure to the end to achieve the greatest level of glorification. We don't loose our salvation if we don't finish the sanctification process. We JUST loose potential rewards.

Whereas in Calvinism, someone that doesn't endure to the end looses their salvation and must not have been one of the elect. Sorry I want no part in being one of the 'frozen chosen'.

 

[Yahu]

It is most definitely a works-based theology if justification is just the doorway to the kingdom and we need works to get close to the throne. Works sanctify us, but they don't determine where we will spend eternity. Romans is clear that those who are justified will be glorified.

Now here are some verses on Glorification:

Da 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

1 Cor 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

Not all are glorified as the same level. We will vary in glory achieved 'as one star differeth from another star in glory'.

It is the wise and those that turn many to righteousness that achieve greater glory within the kingdom.

2 Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

Some in the house will not be sanctified for the master's use. They will be vessels of dishonour of wood or earth.

To be a vessel of the Father's glory you have to enter into the treasure room opened by the 'key of the house of David' and overcome the error of the Philidelphian church, ie lack of strenght but the Philidelphian church already had good works and doctrine. You have to overcome false doctrine before you even get to that point.

If you think Yah is going to do it all for you, well you have my pity when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

Part of the problem with Calvinism is the Sovereignty of God doctrine. They just don't understand that Yah gave dominion over the earth to man. He is not a liar. We have dominion here but we are accountable for our actions.

 

[Yahu]

It is most definitely a works-based theology if justification is just the doorway to the kingdom and we need works to get close to the throne.

But it is NOT works based salvation. Salvation gets us in the door, yes by the Justification of the cross.

It is works based rewards. That is clearly presented in scripture. For example martyrs gain a special reward. Rewards are based on our actions of our free will.

 

[SmallNation]

I've wrangled with this quite a bit. One thing that's really helped me is the parable of the sower:

Matthew 13
King James Version (KJV)
13 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

[A New Dawn]

But it is NOT works based salvation. Salvation gets us in the door, yes by the Justification of the cross.

It is works based rewards. That is clearly presented in scripture. For example martyrs gain a special reward. Rewards are based on our actions of our free will.

Justification is the legal aspect of salvation. We are declared righteous because Christ shouldered our sin and died for us. Glorification is given to those who are justified, according to Romans 8. We don't have to work for it.

There are verses that talk about rewards, but the rewards aren't salvation. We will receive crowns, which we will cast at Jesus' feet when we stand in glory with Him.

 

[Alithis]

perception of present understanding today .. may differ as the years go by and revelation is added .

with predestination topics i have found it peaceful to file them under Psalm 139 v6

God bless

 

[Yahu]

Justification is the legal aspect of salvation. We are declared righteous because Christ shouldered our sin and died for us. Glorification is given to those who are justified, according to Romans 8. We don't have to work for it.

There are verses that talk about rewards, but the rewards aren't salvation. We will receive crowns, which we will cast at Jesus' feet when we stand in glory with Him.

We are not declared righteous. We have paid our debt of sin to Yah because we have covered the consequences of that sin. It doesn't mean the sin didn't exist but the penalty has been paid by another. We still have to grow in personal righteousness as we become more christlike and display His glory in us.

Oh, we all get glorification in the aspect of our resurrected bodies but the levels of glory for each individual will vary in level. Scripture is clear that those of the resurrection will vary as the stars in glory and even some will shine like the sun while others will be in the 'outer darkness (shade)' and lack any personal glory.

There will be those that are the least in the kingdom verses those that will be great in the kingdom. Yes it takes work on our part to gain in that glory. We have to work on renewing our mind. We have to work at studying scripture. We will have works based on our faith. We work to be sanctified and grow into spiritual maturity. Only the works led by the Holy Spirit will stand the testing of fire. The false works of wood, hay and stubble will fail that test.

Your life is your job interview for your eternal position in the heavenly kingdom. If you are content to be a janitor or a gardener, that is your option but only those that overcome the greater error will be 'rulers over nations', priests or kings that share the throne room with positions of great authority.

The concept that everyone will be equal and just all stand around in praise for eternity is based on ignorance. There is a kingdom to run for the rest of eternity. Calvinists that think Yah will do everything for them and they are not accountable for their own actions will be a major population segment of the outer darkness IMO as unworthy servants. Calvinism appeals to the lazy that don't want to be bothered with the work required to overcome false doctrines and grow in spiritual maturity.

We are commanded to store up our treasures in heaven. Some will be poor, blind and naked that live in on the outer walls (the heavenly ghetto so to speak) while others will be overcomers that gain glorious robes of righteousness, shine like the sun and live on the heights with positions of authority within the kingdom.

 

[eyeSalveRich]

Also the total depravity of man is non-sense.

Other than clear scriptures like:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Eccl. 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Ps 143:2 And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous.


I don't see how anyone who has had children can say that. An infant is entirely self centered. Any goodness we exhibit is either learned or by the grace of God.

 

[eyeSalveRich]

When considering free will, consider Hezekiah. Was God lying to, or being disingenuous with Hezekiah when he told him in 2 Kin 20:1 "Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live"?

 

[A New Dawn]

We are not declared righteous. We have paid our debt of sin to Yah because we have covered the consequences of that sin. It doesn't mean the sin didn't exist but the penalty has been paid by another.

What does this even mean? How have we paid our debt of sin or covered the consequences of that sin??????

Justification is the legal declaration that we are not guilty of our sin because Christ paid the price for it. It does nothing to make us clean, but because the sin has been paid for by Christ, since we are unable to, we are declared righteous.

Calvinists that think Yah will do everything for them and they are not accountable for their own actions will be a major population segment of the outer darkness IMO as unworthy servants. Calvinism appeals to the lazy that don't want to be bothered with the work required to overcome false doctrines and grow in spiritual maturity.

You are obviously unaware of what Calvinists believe, so perhaps you shouldn't argue what you don't know.

 

[Albion]

But it is NOT works based salvation. Salvation gets us in the door, yes by the Justification of the cross.

It is works based rewards. That is clearly presented in scripture. For example martyrs gain a special reward. Rewards are based on our actions of our free will.

So....


would you agree that God chooses his elect and they are saved without regard to any good works they might do, BUT the good they do will be rewarded in the afterlife, in accordance with the quality and quantity of those works?

 

[Alithis]

and so begins the war of perception lol

 

[Albion]

I would appreciate insight to the verses in Romans 8:29-30. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethern. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Can this be read as saying "some"....in other words, whom He foreknew, "some" He also predestinated, whom He predestinated "some" He called, whom He called "some" He justified, and whom He justified "some" He also glorified?

Not all people who hear the word of God are saved. But if they are saved, then are they justified? Does that mean that God had foreknowledge of those who would accept Christ and with that, they are predestined, called, justified, and glorified? If so, why doesn't it say in the scripture that whom He foreknew "all" of them are predestined, and so on. Not "all" who hear the scriptures give their lives to Christ, so just because they heard the word doesn't mean they are saved.

Maybe you are thinking that predestination means that all who hear the word will be saved by it, but really, predestination is believed to mean that God chose those in whom it would take root, not just have the opportunity to hear it. It takes God's permission for any of us to actually comprehend and believe it. We all know people who are entirely familiar with the Bible but it just doesn't make sense to them.