Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Albion]

When Barry McGuire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_McGuire was first saved, some people said that he had been brainwashed and his response to them was; "that's fine my dirty old brains needed a good washing."

That reminds me of the response of the Archbishop of Canterbury who was asked something like the following: "Where was your church before the Protestant Reformation?" The reply: "Where was your face before you washed it?"

 

[Goodbook]

Its more of a heartwashing than a brainwashing.

 

[StanJ]

Its more of a heartwashing than a brainwashing.

I agree, but the analogies are great.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Its more of a heartwashing than a brainwashing.

Yup

 

[Rick Otto]

lol

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Its more of a heartwashing than a brainwashing.

Now there we have the truth.

 

[Rick Otto]

Again, I cannot speak about time in God’s realm. It has been shown and not disproven over the last 100 years “time is relative” in man’s world. The “moment” God chose anything for man can be all the same “moment” for everything happening with man. Again, it would all be like history for God, knowing what autonomous free will choices we made without God making them for us or we were not forced to make them, since they are the choices we made.

God’s choice to make a particular human and that person’s free will choices would always be known throughout human time, but maybe not always in the sequence of events in God’s heavenly spiritual time or maybe God chose not to know in His time frame some things.

"...maybe God chose not to know in His time frame some things."

That God would choose not to know something is so counter-intuitive, I can't imagine it happening.
How could and why would, an omniscient being selectively "forget" anything?
It defies sense, in my opinion. No offense, bro.

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes. My feeling about this discussion/thread is that the idea of every last thing being scripted in advance by God seems to be based upon logic and consistency, whereas the idea that God has chosen his Elect to receive saving Faith--just that--is much more easily accepted for the reason that it is a concept that has Scripture behind it.

Fair enough, but I see scripture behind hard determination without the need for real time micro-management (puppeteering).
I see foreknowledge as a result of planning previous to creating, not from just being able to see what happened in His own act of creation. So predestination is just a ten dollar synonym for "plan".
Eph.1

1. [11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Rick Otto]

Folks, we're just spinning our wheels on this time frame speculation stuff. All we are capable of doing is to decide if God predestines people to salvation or not and, even then, we aren't given to know who is "in" and who isn't. In addition, we ought to live our lives as believers in exactly the same way, whether predestination is true or not.

I see it all as an attempt to preserve a false sense of self sovereignty. It presumes God's involuntary or voluntary ignorance of what He Himself created, either while He was creating, or after, such that He would have to look into and at, in order to see what He Himself created.
It is self contradicting on several points, in my opinion.

 

[Jan001]

That is a huge misinterpretation of scripture. Christ is pointing out that they weren't doing it in his name. It is like the tax man and the pharisee praying. The tax man went into a quiet corner and prayed to God quietly, the pharisee prayed out loud so everyone could hear him. The tax man was humble before God the pharisee wasn't and because of this the tax man was more likely to enter heaven than the pharisee.

Scripture states that indeed they did do all the following things in Jesus' name:

Matthew 7:22
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" niv
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The problem is that they also did evil things and because they did not repent of their evildoing before death, they are not approved worthy to inherit/enter eternal life. Please note that Jesus did not contradict their claims that they prophesied in His name, drove out demons in His name, and performed many miracles in His name.

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[Rick Otto]

Scripture states that indeed they did do all the following things in Jesus' name:

Matthew 7:22
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" niv
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The problem is that they also did evil things and because they did not repent of their evildoing before death, they are not approved worthy to inherit/enter eternal life. Please note that Jesus did not contradict their claims that they prophesied in His name, drove out demons in His name, and performed many miracles in His name.

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Perhaps"I never knew you" is the refutation of their claim to have acted in His name.

 

[Albion]

Fair enough, but I see scripture behind hard determination without the need for real time micro-management (puppeteering).

Absolutely. Adding that speculation seems to me mainly a technique used by the unlimited Freewill folks to ridicule the idea of Election.

I see foreknowledge as a result of planning previous to creating, not from just being able to see what happened in His own act of creation. So predestination is just a ten dollar synonym for "plan".

Agreed, although I am inclined towards the idea that the plan does include selecting certain individuals, not just something that's overall or general.

 

[Jan001]

There is nothing in your claim that salvation involves "WORKS" Christ died on the cross to forgive ALL of our sins and there is no "work" that will in any way pay or cancel out sin.

Ephesians 2:4-91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
4 But God which is rich in mercy, through his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead by sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, by whose grace ye are saved,
......
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast himself.

You do realize that anything other than Christs blood is a "work" don't you?

Christ gives us salvation as His gift to us. We keep ourselves saved by doing what God commanded us to do until we die. What are we commanded to do?

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works,which God prepared in advance for us to do. niv
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Any person who calls Jesus, "Lord," and does not do what He commands them to do is a liar. Jesus is not the Lord of evildoers.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? niv

Matthew 5:19-24
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. nkjv​

We keep ourselves in the grace of God by our obedience to His commands. We continue to be saved by our obedience to God's commandments.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. nkjv​

 

[Jan001]

Christ Himself and the apostles are my Christian forefathers. The bible I have is written by various men influenced by God Himself through the Holy Spirit. and preserved by God Himself.

2 Peter 1:211599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy Ghost.

Once again the bible doesn't support your claims the bible came through the your "catholic" church nor did they have any hand in writing anything in it.

The NT Scriptures were preserved and hand-written by Catholic monks and other learned Catholic men for hundreds of years before the Protestant revolution and the invention of the printing press. The Protestants used the Scriptures that the Catholics preserved to make their own Protestant Bibles. Many of these Protestants left out some of the Scripture Books that they did not want.

 

[Jan001]

Sure you did several times.......you seem to have memory problems about your claims eh? After all your claim is that the laws you were referring to were "Moses laws". So who's laws are they Moses or God's?

Both!

God's first, Moses' second. Moses was the mouthpiece of God.

 

[Jan001]

Based on your interpretation we have a pretty stark contradiction. "Will be saved" directly states future tense, which means exactly what it says "...will be...." Calling on His Name is very different than calling fruitlessly Him Lord [and not meaning it].

See the Romans 10 verse in context:

11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

To "call on Him" is not the same as to simply call Him Lord. See that true belief is also required. An atheist can jokingly call Him Lord sarcastically, is that person saved? Obviously not.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS AN EVIL DOING CHRISTIAN

I disagree. A person who is baptized is a Christian. This fact cannot ever be changed.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. nkjv

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The following is an example of an evil-doing Christian.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. rsv​

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What does Paul tell this Christian assembly to do about this evil Christian man?

Paul tells them to excommunicate this evil Christian man. The faithful Christians are ordered to have no fellowship with this evil Christian man.

What will happen to this evil Christian man if he does not repent of his evil before he dies?

This evil Christian man, if he does not repent of his evil doings before his death, will not be approved worthy to inherit/enter eternal life. Jesus will not save him even though he was baptized into Christ after he first believed.

For us to continue to believe in Jesus Christ after we are saved requires that we continue to obey Him.

There is no belief in Jesus Christ without obedience to Him.

 

[Jan001]

How many people were hunted down by the catholic church and burned at the stake for making the bible available to the common people? Foxes Book of the Martyrs mentions several.

No one was burned at the stake for simply making the Bible available to the common people.

Many faulty Bible translations were produced because of these unauthorized translations. Also, it is not a good idea to apply 21st Century moral thinking to past historical events.

 

[Jan001]

I'm sure you don't, but it nevertheless is the case that the Catholics who fashioned the Councils and the Creed were primarily the Catholics we now identify as the Eastern Orthodox, and not so much the Roman Catholics.

If an Eastern Orthodox Patriarch today held the keys of the kingdom of heaven, I'd have to be one of his flock. But, since he does not, and because the Catholic/Roman Pontiff does hold the keys of the kingdom of heaven, I will have to remain Catholic, Roman Rite.

The Catholic Creed more clearly explains the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Scriptures do indeed verify the Catholic Creed.

 

[Jan001]

When God changed the heart of Pharaoh and the army against Joshua (Joshua 11:20) wouldn't you say that is the Lord directing the "steps" of non-believers? Paul speaks of the Lord raising Pharaoh up for a purpose in Romans 9.

God did not literally force Pharaoh to sin against Him. Pharaoh chose freely to sin against God. God's permissive will permitted Pharaoh to sin against Him and so therefore the Israelites say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Literal:

Exodus 8:15​

But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart, and would not listen to them; as the Lord had said. rsv

Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go. rsv

Exodus 9:34
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. rsv

Pharaoh and his servants freely hardened their own hearts.

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Not literal:

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land. rsv​

Exodus 14:17
And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. rsv
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The Lord permitted Pharaoh and his servants to freely harden their own hearts.


We know this is true because God cannot be tempted to do evil. God does not tempt nor force any person to do evil.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; rsv

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Before the foundation of the world, God's foreknowledge of Pharaoh's character and all his life choices caused him to be used for the purpose of the Israelites to give glory to God because He freed them from Pharaoh's dominion.

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[Jan001]

Perhaps"I never knew you" is the refutation of their claim to have acted in His name.

Perhaps it is because the Holy Spirit is not living in them at the time of their death that He does not recognize them as His own people.

Ezekiel 33:12-20
12 And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. 13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live.
17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just’; when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.” rsv


2 Timothy 2:19
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” rsv​

Jesus named Lazarus by name, but He did not state the name the rich man who neglected to help Lazarus. Jesus calls by name the people who are written in the Book of Life, but He will not remember the names of the evil doers.

John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; rsv​