Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[BornAgainChristian1]

Joshua 11:20
Isaiah 63:17
John 12:40

Who exactly is "He" in John 12:40 God or Satan? I don't see "he" as God because why would God not want a person saved by His Son?

 

[98cwitr]

Definitely God in John 12:

37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”


It's very scary to attribute the works of God to Satan...you risk blaspheming the Holy Spirit! Which is unforgivable!!! See Isaiah 44.

John12:41 Isaiah said these things when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

Satan has no glory!

 

[StanJ]

Please follow the conversation. The person that I was corresponding with said the apostles only created one church. I said most of the Epistles are letters to churches. She gave Timothy as an example. I said that is a pastoral epistle, rather than a church epistle (ie. Rome, Ephesas, Phillipi, Corinth, ect)
So who said it didn't apply to a church? thanks.

There is only one Church it has different chapters. You're right, most of them were written to churches, but as it's a public forum so I only address what I saw. We can avoid those type of misunderstandings by keeping the context in play. I wasn't disagreeing with you I was adding more perspective. It appeared you said it didn't apply to the church when you labeled it a pastoral epistle, not an epistle to the church. Thanks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is only one Church it has different chapters. You're right, most of them were written to churches, but as it's a public forum I only address what I saw. We can avoid those type of misunderstanding is by keeping the context and play. I wasn't disagreeing with you I was adding more perspective. It appeared you said it didn't apply to the church when you labeled it a pastoral epistle, not an epistle to the church. Thanks.

Just trying to catch you up on the conversation. Sorry if I appeared rude.

 

[StanJ]

Just trying to catch you up on the conversation. Sorry if I appeared rude.

Nope, you didn't.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Definitely God in John 12:

37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

It's very scary to attribute the works of God to Satan...you risk blaspheming the Holy Spirit! Which is unforgivable!!! See Isaiah 44.

John12:41 Isaiah said these things when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

Satan has no glory!

Well it does say "He" at the beginning of the verse and then says "I" at the end of the verse signaling Jesus is speaking about another.BTW blaspheming the Holt Spirit is rejecting Him when He convicts you of salvation or in other words rejecting salvation/Christ's atonement.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well it's not me it's the Bible but basically foreknowledge means that God knows ahead(fore). Not in the fashion of being clairvoyant but because he does not exist or is bound by time. God created time and as we may look at a linear timeline of the Bible, God is able to do the same thing with time. Everything is laid out for him because that's the way he created it. God has no beginning or end because he doesn't exist or function within time.

...And that doesn't put Him hard at place in the position of determination?
I have a healthy sense of detachment from my ego... it doesn't represent but a small part of me, so I don't feel so dependant on my will for identity. I don't feel like a puppet, so why should i care if i AM one? if we are puppets in life, a happy puppet is what I want to be.
I guess my biggest objection is to the word "free", because it is free of meaning without context, and context is itself a restriction of meaning to specific circumstances. So free will sounds a little like an oxymoron.

Most civil discussion of it I've enjoyed yet.

 

[Rick Otto]

No, that is not accurate about predestination. In Calvin, God predetermined everything, right down to the smallest detail, ahead of time. This also included the elect and the reprobate. So everything happens exactly the way God planned it. We have no choice. You might take a look some time at the doctrine of election in the Westminster Confession of Faith, which makes the same point. God predetermined ahead of time who the elect and reprobate are, so there's nothing we can do about it.

That's problematic in that most "Calvinists" don't see it as that complete. I do, except it is incorrect to say "we have no choice", rather our choices have been determined.

 

[Thursday]

Yes.
It is talking about life here on earth, being cut off from the benefits of Christian community.
It's all right there in the comments.how else do you distinguish and iterate loss of rewards in heaven to keep from confusing salvation with heaven?
Consider this dear brother,... belief is the saving work of God.

It may be in your comments, but it is not in scripture.

John 15
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesa so that it will be even more fruitful....6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned....10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[Thursday]

That's problematic in that most "Calvinists" don't see it as that complete. I do, except it is incorrect to say "we have no choice", rather our choices have been determined.

Predetermined choices aren't choices.

Foreknown choices are choices.

 

[Albion]

That's problematic in that most "Calvinists" don't see it as that complete. I do, except it is incorrect to say "we have no choice", rather our choices have been determined.

Yes. My feeling about this discussion/thread is that the idea of every last thing being scripted in advance by God seems to be based upon logic and consistency, whereas the idea that God has chosen his Elect to receive saving Faith--just that--is much more easily accepted for the reason that it is a concept that has Scripture behind it.

 

[bling]

But he never would and God foreknew it...so the point is moot don't you think?

In other words: There is no other possibility or choice than the ones that are foreknown by God. Thus, the future is singular and static.

Again you are putting God in man’s linear time frame where God “knows” something that has not yet happened for God.

It is hard for us to grasp the concept of God being outside of time (it is like everything is happening simultaneously for God).

“Our future” is singular/ static/set, but we are the ones (our autonomous free will choices) that set our future free will choices, because those are the choices we made (historically for God).

“Our future” is like history for God and history cannot be changed, even if God wanted to do it again differently the first “history” still exist for God, but God would not want it done again, because He did as good as could be done.

Yes! God knows all our future autonomous free will choices from the moment God chose to make us (at the same time He chose to make us, we were born, lived, made choices, died, went to judgement and are in heaven or hell).

 

[98cwitr]

Again you are putting God in man’s linear time frame where God “knows” something that has not yet happened for God.

It is hard for us to grasp the concept of God being outside of time (it is like everything is happening simultaneously for God).

“Our future” is singular/ static/set, but we are the ones (our autonomous free will choices) that set our future free will choices, because those are the choices we made (historically for God).

“Our future” is like history for God and history cannot be changed, even if God wanted to do it again differently the first “history” still exist for God, but God would not want it done again, because He did as good as could be done.

Yes! God knows all our future autonomous free will choices from the moment God chose to make us (at the same time He chose to make us, we were born, lived, made choices, died, went to judgement and are in heaven or hell).

From the moment He chose to make us? Didnt He know them prior to that as well?

 

[bling]

From the moment He chose to make us? Didnt He know them prior to that as well?

Again, is there a "prior time" for God?
There might be God's own sequencing of events (time in the Spiritual realm), but I do not know how that works.
A person that is not going to ever exist has no future and you or God could imagine anything about such a free will being as you like. "When" (this is speaking with human terms) God decides to make a being, that being existed (has a future which is like "has a history" for God).

 

[98cwitr]

Again, is there a "prior time" for God?
There might be God's own sequencing of events (time in the Spiritual realm), but I do not know how that works.
A person that is not going to ever exist has no future and you or God could imagine anything about such a free will being as you like. "When" (this is speaking with human terms) God decides to make a being, that being existed (has a future which is like "has a history" for God).

Then there is no "moment He chose." That means that eternally the choice is always apparent.

 

[Albion]

Folks, we're just spinning our wheels on this time frame speculation stuff. All we are capable of doing is to decide if God predestines people to salvation or not and, even then, we aren't given to know who is "in" and who isn't. In addition, we ought to live our lives as believers in exactly the same way, whether predestination is true or not.

 

[Goodbook]

In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.

The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"

The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

What do other people think and believe ?

I think I would agree with that statement. For example. Abraham ypu could say was presdestined to fufill Gods calling and promise, but he was never coerced into this. He actually had to wait a long time for Isaac to be born, and actually abraham tried to force Gods hand by siring Ishmael.
Likewise Moses, was he coerced into being the leader of the Israelites? I dont think so, he was certainly, called and given the equipment to fufill his calling even when he didnt think he could do it.
Was Mary coerced into bearing Jesus? Well it was a surprise but she humbly submitted to Gods will.
Was Paul coerced from being a pharisee? Well it was Gods plan all along. PAul did humble himself and Paul did say he did things put of ignorance and unbelief. But he wasnt coerced into following Jesus.
And all the other disciples of Jesus, were just called, they werent ever forced to quit their jobs and follow him. If they didnt want to follow him they could choose not to, and some didnt, they turned away.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

That's problematic in that most "Calvinists" don't see it as that complete. I do, except it is incorrect to say "we have no choice", rather our choices have been determined.

Wouldn't it better to say our choices are already known by God and He chooses to intervene at times to keep His plan for us on track.

 

[bling]

Then there is no "moment He chose." That means that eternally the choice is always apparent.

Again, I cannot speak about time in God’s realm. It has been shown and not disproven over the last 100 years “time is relative” in man’s world. The “moment” God chose anything for man can be all the same “moment” for everything happening with man. Again, it would all be like history for God, knowing what autonomous free will choices we made without God making them for us or we were not forced to make them, since they are the choices we made.

God’s choice to make a particular human and that person’s free will choices would always be known throughout human time, but maybe not always in the sequence of events in God’s heavenly spiritual time or maybe God chose not to know in His time frame some things.

 

[StanJ]

...And that doesn't put Him hard at place in the position of determination?
I have a healthy sense of detachment from my ego... it doesn't represent but a small part of me, so I don't feel so dependant on my will for identity. I don't feel like a puppet, so why should i care if i AM one? if we are puppets in life, a happy puppet is what I want to be.
I guess my biggest objection is to the word "free", because it is free of meaning without context, and context is itself a restriction of meaning to specific circumstances. So free will sounds a little like an oxymoron.
Most civil discussion of it I've enjoyed yet.

When Barry McGuire https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_McGuire was first saved, some people said that he had been brainwashed and his response to them was; "that's fine my dirty old brains needed a good washing."