Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Berean777]

Like a watch maker gives the function of each watch piece within the greater scheme of things, whereby likewise God gives us tgat function and we will know it when we come to the fullness of Christ and function for the intended created purpose and in this regard we have no choice.

 

[Albion]

Both Election and Grace must come together in unison.

Where did that theory come from?

 

[Thursday]

and we cooperate if God has chosen us to receive the grace that makes faith possible..

God wants all men to cooperate.

Stop blaming God for man's decision to reject God's grace.

 

[Berean777]

Where did that theory come from?

Grace is the door for us to realise that election to its true potential.

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.
11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service/election, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

 

[Albion]

God wants all men to cooperate.

We'd agree that God prefers that we do what's right rather than that which is against his laws. I haven't picked up that anyone here is arguing that it's preferable to do good than to do evil.

 

[Albion]

Grace is the door for us to realise that election to its true potential.

Huh? Are you saying that grace is that which makes us believe?

 

[Thursday]

We'd agree that God prefers that we do what's right rather than that which is against his laws. I haven't picked up that anyone here is arguing that it's preferable to do good than to do evil.

You mistakenly assume that God chooses which men will do right. That also means that God also chooses which men will continue to do wrong. You are blaming God for the sins of man.

 

[keltoi]

Exactly...their nature came from God. He forms all of our hearts: Psalm 33:15

So God caused humanity to fall then, that's great.

You're still not addressing as to why God, being Omniscient, decided to put the tree in the garden.

Start another thread and I will discuss my belief as to why God does what he does, this is about Predestination not about God's reasoning skills.

 

[Berean777]

Huh? Are you saying that grace is that which makes us believe?

No, the act o faith is a free will choice. Grace is what makes us come to the knowledge of who we are and what our intended purpose is in this temporal life. Grace saves us because it is solely the predestined function that God gives us, so there is no choice to how it is apportioned.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Exactly...their nature came from God. He forms all of our hearts: Psalm 33:15

You're still not addressing as to why God, being Omniscient, decided to put the tree in the garden.

Exactly...their nature came from God. He forms all of our hearts: Psalm 33:15

There were several different trees in the Garden two being the tree of Life and the tree of Knowledge. Perhaps you can tell us why Eve picker the tree of Knowledge instead of the tree of life? To answer your question just because God knew what Adam and Eve would do does in no way imply God was the cause of it.

This verse kind of completely destroys your premise of God's supposed guilt in Adam and Eve's sin
James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Born Again,

Posted over 100 lines of biblical phrases————what the Pharisees use to do,,,,posted for public consumption and believed quantity was an important factor in loving God……….comes from the TSK, probably
Born Again , has cast away a Golden Ring for a piece of brass ring.

"Born Again" didn't waste time getting the Protestant Bible GNV……….why not the KJV,,maybe has both for a wider interpretation. A good one is referring to Peter as the " Stone" that's a good one,
Peter= Petrus (Latin) related to a rock = Peter ——- stone in Latin is "lapis" nice try.

Many fallen-away Catholics become extremely critical of the religion they abandoned———some where up in that cacophony of Biblical phrases, Born Again becomes rather vicious by referring the Catholic Mass as some sort of satanic rite…..WOW.

i think that mean-spirited accusation is a sign of some undercurrent anger———




AMDG

Fact is I choose the GNV because of those like you that tout the KJV is the only true bible. How ever twisting what I said isn't helping your erroneous argument that Peter means anything but a stone because out of Christ own mouth this was this said......
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone. BTW I've fallen away from nothing but in fact became a born again Christian putting off the heresy I was taught as a child by allowing God to lead me to salvation. So please refrain on making foolish and unfounded claims about me.

Yes Scripture recorded Christ as referring to Peter as a stone and in fact renaming him CEPHAS to solidify that fact.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Exactly...their nature came from God. He forms all of our hearts: Psalm 33:15



You're still not addressing as to why God, being Omniscient, decided to put the tree in the garden.

There were several different trees in the Garden two being the tree of Life and the tree of Knowledge. Perhaps you can tell us why Eve picked the tree of Knowledge instead of the tree of life? To answer your question just because God knew what Adam and Eve would do does in no way imply God was the cause of it.

This verse kind of completely destroys your premise of God's supposed guilt in Adam and Eve's sin
James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

 

[Rick Otto]

There were several different trees in the Garden two being the tree of Life and the tree of Knowledge. Perhaps you can tell us why Eve picked the tree of Knowledge instead of the tree of life? To answer your question just because God knew what Adam and Eve would do does in no way imply God was the cause of it.

This verse kind of completely destroys your premise of God's supposed guilt in Adam and Eve's sin
James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

Fact is I choose the GNV because of those like you that tout the KJV is the only true bible. How ever twisting what I said isn't helping your erroneous argument that Peter means anything but a stone because out of Christ own mouth this was this said......
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone. BTW I've fallen away from nothing but in fact became a born again Christian putting off the heresy I was taught as a child by allowing God to lead me to salvation. So please refrain on making foolish and unfounded claims about me.

Yes Scripture recorded Christ as referring to Peter as a stone and in fact renaming him CEPHAS to solidify that fact.

Yes. Thank you.
Do you accept that the word "evil" in Isa45:7 means "calamity", and not "evil"?
I think it means God created it - as a possibility.
Otherwise, as a possibility it wouldn't exist.

 

[keltoi]

Yes. Thank you.
Do you accept that the word "evil" in Isa45:7 means "calamity", and not "evil"?
I think it means God created it - as a possibility.
Otherwise, as a possibility it wouldn't exist.

http://biblehub.com/nas/isaiah/45.htm

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Yes. Thank you.
Do you accept that the word "evil" in Isa45:7 means "calamity", and not "evil"?
I think it means God created it - as a possibility.
Otherwise, as a possibility it wouldn't exist.

Evil = rebellion against God.

 

[Albion]

You mistakenly assume that God chooses which men will do right

That's not what I said. God chooses those who will have Faith in Christ and, therefore, be saved. It is automatic that, as disciples of the Lord, they will want to do right.

 

[Albion]

No, the act o faith is a free will choice. Grace is what makes us come to the knowledge of who we are and what our intended purpose is in this temporal life. Grace saves us because it is solely the predestined function that God gives us, so there is no choice to how it is apportioned.

Sounds like the perfect argument both for and against predestination at once.

 

[Thursday]

That's not what I said. God chooses those who will have Faith in Christ and, therefore, be saved. It is automatic that, as disciples of the Lord, they will want to do right.

Semantic evasions. Your claim is that only those chosen by God beforehand will be saved regardless of their response to grace.

That's not what the bible teaches, but it is what Calvin taught.

Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself. God the Father tells us that he wants all men to be saved.

So then, given that all are drawn to Christ and that God wants all men to be saved, what do you believe is the difference between someone who is saved and someone who is not?

 

[Albion]

Semantic evasions.

Suit yourself then. I thought the explanation/clarification was pretty specific.

And the threads on predestination that are currently active have included a number of Bible proofs, so the verbal footstomping ("That's not what the bible teaches...") and denials given in reply don't help the discussion at all. Some of it doesn't even make sense. For example, you say "Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself." You may imagine that this means freewill, but you'd better be willing to advocate universalism as well, because that's what a literal interpretation of this verse would require.

 

[Thursday]

Suit yourself then. I thought the explanation/clarification was pretty specific.

And the threads on predestination that are currently active have included a number of Bible proofs, so the verbal footstomping ("That's not what the bible teaches...") and denials given in reply don't help the discussion at all. Some of it doesn't even make sense. For example, you say "Jesus tells us that he will draw all men to himself." You may imagine that this means freewill, but you'd better be willing to advocate universalism as well, because that's what a literal interpretation of this verse would require.

You are mistaken. The fact that Jesus draws all men to himself doesn't mean that all men will be saved, it means that his grace is pulling them to beauty and truth. Just as you can lead a horse to water.

Your mistake is thinking that the saved are the winners of some cosmic lottery. The scriptures are an instruction manual for living. Why would God give us these instructions about how to live a life pleasing to him for no reason? The bible is clear that we will be judged for our actions on earth. God wants us to do the right thing.