Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[BobRyan]

Determinism — each one of our acts or choices are determined by the character of the agents plus the motives acting on him/them at the time. If I am a liberal person and I read the bible only, then I will seek out those biblical phrases that will jell with my liberal ideas——bending phrases, interpretations, translations.

Does God cause determinism————I suppose in a way since He would be the Agent causing a person to act in a certain way.
If one becomes a Baptist because he feels the Baptist philosophy will help him gain salvation……then the idea of worshipping God is influenced by his love for God. Go one step further and say that God gave him special graces to make such choices….. ad infinitum


AMDG

Doe He "cause" someone to blaspheme His name? Or do they do that on their own? Certainly He "foreknew" they were going to choose to do so.

 

[Jason Sanders]

Predestination is, sadly, a very difficult topic for people to tackle. While the idea behind the verse in Romans 8 has very little to do with the Theological concept of Predestination, there is something I would like to point out about the nature of God's will and the methods He uses to make it come to pass; namely, how, regardless of the "predetermined outcome" (that is, the outcome God wishes to occur and the one He has planned to occur), there is always an element of choice in His plan/will for us. In the Garden, we we're given a CHOICE- we could believe the lies of the devil, or we could believe the truth of God's Word.

Since the beginning, we have always had a choice, always been presented with an alternative to God's will, should we not wish to follow it. Regardless of how God wants things to go, He allows us to choose whether to follow Him, not because He can't make us do what he wants, but because He loves us and wants us to follow Him willingly. We aren't perfect at it, we stumble and fall, but the beauty of God is that He already knew that we would- and let us do it, so the we could learn to trust in Him just a little bit more.

So, in short? No, Predestination is not coercive. Far from it, it is perhaps the most freeing thing about God's will, both for us and for the world.

 

[BobRyan]

Foreknowledge - is God's absolute knowledge about what will happen.

Predestination is about God making something happen.

"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11 -- the end of Calvinism.

Calvinism does not survive Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - Calvin would know exactly what God could have done to get a different outcome. And in that system God DOES do that very thing - to get a different outcome "When He feels like it".

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - God is the saboteur of His own plans - the cause of His own Is 5:4 lament.

 

[Jason Sanders]

Just a slight misconception there; Predestination is about God having already decided that something will happen, not necessarily God making something happen right now, hence the "pre-" suffix. But otherwise, yes, exactly on point.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Man in this life is a wayfarer; he is on the road to seek Truth (Veritas) which is God. And by his own fault, may reject direction and fail to reach his true goal. Since seeking God is a supernatural task, he cannot reach it by his natural powers alone. He requires supernatural aid and when offered, he may refuse it.

The whole effect of predestination has as its cause in God, for all grace comes from Him to dispose a man for salvation. Man must cooperate with the saving will of God if he is to gain heaven. If we choose to do the will of God an use His grace to make wise and prudent decisions, we can pretty much count on gaining heaven, (a bit of predestination)
Otherwise uhhhhh, the guy with the pointed ears and trident may be visiting you.

11 Peter 1: 10 "Strive ….by good works to make your calling and election sure."

I am not a faith-based salvationist nor a works-based salvationist————the answer then is, we need both—-faith and good works.



Parapharsed from Aquinas.

AMDG

Works has nothing to do with salvation...But faith in Christ alone does.

Romans 10:131599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved.


Acts 16:311599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
31 And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thine household.

Romans 10:91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
9 For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Quoted from God's precious word

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Foreknowledge - is God's absolute knowledge about what will happen.

Predestination is about God making something happen.

"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11 -- the end of Calvinism.

Calvinism does not survive Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - Calvin would know exactly what God could have done to get a different outcome. And in that system God DOES do that very thing - to get a different outcome "When He feels like it".

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - God is the saboteur of His own plans - the cause of His own Is 5:4 lament.

Calvinism is what happens when men put their faith in other men's opionons instead of God's word.

 

[ScottA]

In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.

The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"

The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

What do other people think and believe ?

Predestination is a term that gives perspective to those who dwell within the non-reality of time.

For example: If you asked, What happens to Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz? The answer would be: She wakes up (if I recall correctly). But if your question came half way through the book, then the answer would be: I don't know, I need to finish the book. Of course, the book is already finished before the reader finishes reading it...and so the idea that Dorothy was predestine to wake up, is only known to the author and those who have already finished.

Likewise...time and the destiny of we human characters in the story of life in the world, was simply "created" by a timeless Author...to give His timeless tale...a story line.

 

[mikpat]

Bob Ryan,
I don't think God gives graces to man to do evil—-that would go against God's goodness. If I give Bob a nice jackknife to whittle on wood and he decides to use it to knife his neighbor——obviously Bob has abused God's graces——a dangerous move.

Regarding salvation in most cases 99%,,,,it's not what God does, it's what man does.

Faith-based salvation is out only half the job————good works are included = faith and good works are necessary for salvation unless God intercedes in rare cases. rare cases, i.e.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Bob Ryan,
I don't think God gives graces to man to do evil—-that would go against God's goodness. If I give Bob a nice jackknife to whittle on wood and he decides to use it to knife his neighbor——obviously Bob has abused God's graces——a dangerous move.

Regarding salvation in most cases 99%,,,,it's not what God does, it's what man does.

Faith-based salvation is out only half the job————good works are included = faith and good works are necessary for salvation unless God intercedes in rare cases. rare cases, i.e.

Why did Christ die on the cross if salvation depended in any way on your works?

 

[mikpat]

Born Again——

If a married man sees his boss' secretary every Friday afternoon for a sexual encounter———-The married man reads his bible, may even attend Church but continues his sexual activity————uhhhh is he still saved, is his fault out the window?

A mechanic installs cheap parts in his customer's engine repairs, but charges a fee for expensive parts———is he accountable?
Yes we may be saved if we repent and try to do better———God watches, and judges.

 

[Mrs.PGL]

Born Again——

If a married man sees his boss' secretary every Friday afternoon for a sexual encounter———-The married man reads his bible, may even attend Church but continues his sexual activity————uhhhh is he still saved, is his fault out the window?

Mike, if someone is involved in unrepentant sin, I would wonder if they were truly saved.
1 John 1:6 - If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Born Again——

If a married man sees his boss' secretary every Friday afternoon for a sexual encounter———-The married man reads his bible, may even attend Church but continues his sexual activity————uhhhh is he still saved, is his fault out the window?

A mechanic installs cheap parts in his customer's engine repairs, but charges a fee for expensive parts———is he accountable?
Yes we may be saved if we repent and try to do better———God watches, and judges.

You didn't answer my question : Why did Christ die on the cross if salvation depended in any way on your works?

 

[keltoi]

Forget the word predestination. A few facts people either don't seem to understand or don't believe.
1. God knows everything.
2. God doesn't make us do anything.
3. We have free will and freedom of choice.

Now knowing these things to be true we can deduce that we can choose Christ if we want to, Christ can accept us if he wants to (based on our worthiness), God already knows who will truly accept him and who he has already accepted based on our true acceptance of him. Just because God already knows what we will do doesn't mean he predetermined it.

In other words, Christ died for us but we still have to accept what he did and accept his overlordship of us. If we truly accept him then he accepts us.

 

[98cwitr]

Forget the word predestination. A few facts people either don't seem to understand or don't believe.
1. God knows everything.
2. God doesn't make us do anything.
3. We have free will and freedom of choice.

Now knowing these things to be true we can deduce that we can choose Christ if we want to, Christ can accept us if he wants to (based on our worthiness), God already knows who will truly accept him and who he has already accepted based on our true acceptance of him. Just because God already knows what we will do doesn't mean he predetermined it.

In other words, Christ died for us but we still have to accept what he did and accept his overlordship of us. If we truly accept him then he accepts us.

Let's not spout out facts without backing them up with evidence please.

 

[mikpat]

Born Again,

No one is advocating "works only" the only people who dramatize "works only" are the "bible only" people…….ironic hmm?

I never heard of a Christian who advocated "works only" huh basically a ridiculous statement, unless you are an atheist, humanist, naturalist etc…

 

[mikpat]

I agree with Keltoi's three statements, they begin with faith and then they are reasonably seen

God is omniscient, otherwise He would not be perfection.
There is no past or future for God only the present, everything in existence is in the present for God otherwise He would be limited by the past and future, limited this would deny God's eternity, infinity.

Leltoi is correct, God gave man intelligence and a free will allowing him to make choices. God can interfere with a man's choice if He chooses via some Revelation.
Genesis 1 :26 When God made man He said.. "in our image," that image is an intellect and a will but since man faltered, man's will and intellect became imperfect, thus we were/ are susceptible to sinning.

AMDG.

 

[Neogaia777]

Doe He "cause" someone to blaspheme His name? Or do they do that on their own? Certainly He "foreknew" they were going to choose to do so.

Matrix Reloaded- "Your not here to make the choice, you've already made it, your here to understand "why" you made it, I thought you would have figured that out by now..." Oracle to Neo...

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed in the Calvinist model - Arminians are exposing the flaws in Calvinism at God's command, at His direction and the Arminians have no choice in the matter. Who then could complain about what both the Arminian and the Calvinist will claim is God's sovereign "direction" in causing the Arminian to expose flaws in Calvinism?

 

[BobRyan]

keltoi said: ↑
Forget the word predestination. A few facts people either don't seem to understand or don't believe.
1. God knows everything.
2. God doesn't make us do anything.
3. We have free will and freedom of choice.

Let's not spout out facts without backing them up with evidence please.

There is no dispute between Calvinists and Arminians on point #1.

Points number 2 and 3 are already demonstrated for us in John 1:11 and in Isaiah 5:4

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan,
I don't think God gives graces to man to do evil—-that would go against God's goodness. If I give Bob a nice jackknife to whittle on wood and he decides to use it to knife his neighbor——obviously Bob has abused God's graces——a dangerous move.

Agreed. We have breath and life - to do good - but many use it to do evil.

Regarding salvation in most cases 99%,,,,it's not what God does, it's what man does.

Faith-based salvation is out only half the job————good works are included = faith and good works are necessary for salvation unless God intercedes in rare cases. rare cases, i.e.

In Romans 3:9-19 we are told that not one soul of man "seeks after God" in our sinful nature.

So it is the work of God in "drawing ALL Mankind unto Him" John 12:32 that enables the lost to even make that choice for the Gospel -- long before they ever choose to make it.

What is more - God "convicts the WORLD of Sin and righteousness and judgment" -- even before the lost turns to God and is saved.

And what is more - 1 John 2:2 Christ dies as the "atoning sacrifice" for the sins "of the whole world" - at the cross. not that everyone will choose to accept.

So that just leaves the choice of man as we see in Romans 10:8-10