Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Albion]

Or perhaps attempting to define "predestination" differently than scripture defines it.

Not a chance IMO. "Predestination" and "Not Predestination" aren't simply different ways of interpreting "Predestination!"

 

[Albion]

I would say that the Church's teaching on predestination before Calvin, never included OSAS in its teaching on the matter. The Augustinian, Molinist, and Thomist views of predestination, do not accept the OSAS concept.

I don't see that that has much weight. The Bible either supports the idea or it doesn't. I do admit that, as with many other issues, different people see some of these matters in a variety of different ways thanks to different interpretations.

What is the "once"?

It's God decision made in the individual's case.

No. What saves in Catholic theology is God's grace. That is what saves.

We all believe that salvation is made possible only because of Grace. To say what you did as though it solves the Faith vs. Works issue that has been a controversy for many centuries simply avoids the issue.

No it doesn't. It explains the lives of the predestined.

...or so you'd like to think, as one who does not believe in predestination.

 

[Erose]

I don't see that that has much weight. The Bible either supports the idea or it doesn't. I do admit that, as with many other issues, different people see some of these matters in a variety of different ways thanks to different interpretations.

Ok. From my perspective I have not read one Scripture passage that supports OSAS, and we have a bigger Bible.

It's God decision made in the individual's case.

We both know that that is not what is meant by OSAS.

We all believe that salvation is made possible only because of Grace. To say what you did as though it solves the Faith vs. Works issue that has been a controversy for many centuries simply avoids the issue.

Well, the faith vs works issue is another concoction of the Rebellion. Faith and works are not polar opposites.

...or so you'd like to think, as one who does not believe in predestination.

But I do believe in Predestination, just not double predestination.

 

[com7fy8]

@Patmos "Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?"

By "determinism", I mean God controls what happens.

By "coercive", I mean the control is mean and bossy and uncaring and forcing someone to do what you want to use the person, for your selfish reason.

So, yes God controls all, but with His loving purpose, overall, never selfish. So, predestination is deterministic with God's love end, but not coercive.

"God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16), and Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-30)

So, God does things gently and kindly and with rest for the soul of whoever obeys God and how He rules us in His peace.

However, there are people whose nature is not submissive to God in His peace; so He works these people for His purposes, but this goes along with their unsubject nature. We see how it was Satan's nature to hate and accuse Job > Job chapter one > so, God worked along with Satan's evil and stupidity and stubbornness of nature, allowing and controlling what Satan would be allowed to do. Like this, wrong people do get things which it is their nature to seek; however, they keep discovering how they are limited . . . because >

"God resists the proud" (in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5).

And if God pleases to adopt an evil person to become a child of God, He gently changes the person's nature to become submissive to Him, then works along with how He changes the person's nature. Romans chapter nine, John 6:44.

The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

By my definitions, each word can bring out a different aspect and complementary clarification I would say

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

What claim is that ?

Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.

Not relief for the answered prayer for a loved one, leading to despair and doubt.

I could go on...

Or perhaps I misunderstood your statement?

 

[Patmos]

Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.

Not relief for the answered prayer for a loved one, leading to despair and doubt.

I could go on...

Or perhaps I misunderstood your statement?

Hi BornAgain,

I think we are at cross purposes. Have you ever met some one in total despair, a member of their family is in a bad way, long, terminal illness, .....

....
...

The book of Job has just sprung into my mind.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Hi BornAgain,

I think we are at cross purposes. Have you ever met some one in total despair, a member of their family is in a bad way, long, terminal illness, prayers go unanswered ( it seems). They start to doubt. And Calvinism does NOT help. They start to think they were predestined to be the seed on rocky ground. Predestined to grow in the faith, believe they are saved. Only to wither and die, as predestined by God.

I have seen it in others and I have been there myself when my wife's life was ended in a savage way.
When one hold another hand as they pass into eternity, bleeding and frightened, it has one big huge lasting effect on ones life - believe me. Then to see others go thru the same process, their pain fed by Calvinism's "God predestined it".

There is NO comfort, NO relief. Just more doubt heaped on more doubt, driving one to insanity.
It is - unfortunately - quite prevelant.

The book of Job has just stung into my mind.

Yes I agree that we can allow that hopelessness in our lives and yes I've been there and thank God for reminding me He is always there for us if we call on Him. It's a shame Calvinism is such a nihilist unbiblical belief and to have such a foolish doctrine to believe that God would predesignate anyone to hell. The fact is we all be destined hell if it wasn't for God's unfathomable grace. My heart goes out to you about your wife.

 

[BobRyan]

But I didn't do that at all! Romans 2 was not introduced by me and was not part of my reference to Works Righteousness until it was thrown up to me.

Because your argument deals with those who have no Bible - and argues in essence that the Romans 2 scenario does not exist. While not naming Romans 2 - you point to the scenario which the Catholic church allows to exist -- and you apparently don't.

Nor do I consider it the basis for either approving of or rejecting the idea of salvation by good works,

While I do agree with you that the Romans 2 scenario is not a case of salvation by works - I don't agree that such a scenario can be used to show that Catholics have some aspect of their doctrine that is righteousness by works.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi BornAgain,

I think we are at cross purposes. Have you ever met some one in total despair, a member of their family is in a bad way, long, terminal illness, prayers go unanswered ( it seems). They start to doubt. And Calvinism does NOT help. .

What is more - even 4 and 5 point Calvinists do not use Calvinism when evangelizing. In evangelism they always "appeal" for a decision to be made instead of saying "nothing you or I say or do today will make any difference in who is saved and who is not. So let us all sit quietly and see if --it just so happens-- that someone will be saved in the next 30 minutes because of election".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jan001]

In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.

The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"

The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

What do other people think and believe ?

God is omniscient. He knows all there is to know about everything. It makes no difference if it is past, present, or future tense regarding things on earth.

Before the foundation of the world God foreknew which people would be faithful to Him and His commandments until they died. God predestined these people to eternal life before they were born. He also put these people into His hand before they were born, never to be snatched out.

Before the foundation of the world God knew which people would never become faithful to Him and His commandments. God did not predestine these people to eternal life before they were born. God did not put these people into His hand before they were born.

Before the foundation of the world God knew which people would become faithful to Him and His commandments for a while but then not remain faithful until they died. God did not predestine these people to eternal life before they were born. God did not put these people into His hand before they were born.

Before the foundation of the world God knew that Adam would sin and lose the possibility for him and all his descendants to inherit eternal life. Therefore before the foundation of the world, God planned/destined the Son/Word to become incarnate so that He could, through His sacrificial death on the cross, redeem Adam and his descendants from his sin and thereby grant Adam and his descendants the possibility once again to inherit eternal life.

God's salvation plan is accomplished without denying any person his own free will choices. God forces no person to obey His commandments and He forces no person to disobey His commandments. God prevents no person from obeying His commandments and He prevents no person from disobeying His commandments.

We each freely choose by our own actions to be either a vessel for honor or a vessel for dishonor.


2 Timothy 2:20-21
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. nkjv

 

[keltoi]

Matthew 7 is pertinent here. Verses 19-23 deal with people who believed they were saved yet were not.
God knows who is saved, some people know they are saved, some people think they are saved, some people are fooled into believing they are saved. The only one who knows everything is God.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

God is omniscient. He knows all there is to know about everything. It makes no difference if it is past, present, or future tense regarding things on earth.

Before the foundation of the world God foreknew which people would be faithful to Him and His commandments until they died. God predestined these people to eternal life before they were born. He also put these people into His hand before they were born, never to be snatched out.

Before the foundation of the world God knew which people would never become faithful to Him and His commandments. God did not predestine these people to eternal life before they were born. God did not put these people into His hand before they were born.

Before the foundation of the world God knew which people would become faithful to Him and His commandments for a while but then not remain faithful until they died. God did not predestine these people to eternal life before they were born. God did not put these people into His hand before they were born.

Before the foundation of the world God knew that Adam would sin and lose the possibility for him and all his descendants to inherit eternal life. Therefore before the foundation of the world, God planned/destined the Son/Word to become incarnate so that He could, through His sacrificial death on the cross, redeem Adam and his descendants from his sin and thereby grant Adam and his descendants the possibility once again to inherit eternal life.

God's salvation plan is accomplished without denying any person his own free will choices. God forces no person to obey His commandments and He forces no person to disobey His commandments. God prevents no person from obeying His commandments and He prevents no person from disobeying His commandments.

We each freely choose by our own actions to be either a vessel for honor or a vessel for dishonor.


2 Timothy 2:20-21
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. nkjv

So then you never sin and dishonor Christs sacrifice?

 

[Jan001]

Patmos said:
Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.​

In a way, it is.

God creates every person in that He permits them to be born via the natural order that He created. Every person that God creates is very important to Him. He desires all people to be saved and also to inherit eternal life.

Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” nkjv

1 Timothy 2:3-7
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. nkjv

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. nkjv​

God wants every person He creates to be with Him in eternity. Unfortunately, many people freely choose to disobey His commandments and to not repent of these sins before they die and thereby they condemn themselves to hell.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” nkjv

Romans 14:22
Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. nkjv

Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? nkjv

Romans 2:1
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. nkjv

2 Thessalonians 1:7b-9
......when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, nkjv
​

 

[tickingclocker]

I agree with the OP, but at least in my understanding of the word "coercive" in context just means that God forces His Will to be done. I personally dont see this as how it works. We will only do what it is in our nature to do. If God gives us a new heart and His Spirit to guide us, there is no coercion required, because the person will naturally do those [and different from their old nature] things.

Analogy:

You're walking along a path and you round a corner to find a big boulder in your way, so you walk around it because it's not in your nature to just stop or turn around and go back. Unknown to you, I just put the boulder there. Did I "coerce" you to walk around it? To the point, since it was my will for you to walk around the boulder and with full knowledge that you would do so if I placed it there, was my will done?

I can't see how God can "force" His will. He speaks and it happens. Where's the insistence?

 

[stephen583]

Personally, I don't believe in "predestination" as a Judaic/Christian principle at all. I won't bother flooding this thread with all the verses and scriptural evidence to support my belief, because others are just going to come along and post their evidence claiming my position contradicts their scripture, so in the interest of not being tedious, I'll just explain in plain words why I believe the way I do.

I believe God transcends time as we understand it. He is Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. He exists simultaneously in all times, including the present time. Having this kind of supreme knowledge, he naturally knows the choices we are going to make before we make them. Does that qualify as "predestination" ?! I don't believe so. The choice we make is ultimately our own.

As for "coercive" determinism ??? The Bible certainly seems to indicate God is not averse to the idea of giving someone a strong nudge in the right direction from time to time. The story of Jonah being swallowed by a whale, and Saul of Tarsus (The Apostle Paul) being blinded on the road to Damascus are just a couple of examples out of dozens found in the Old and New Testament. But are these acts actually "coercion", (as in a threat), or are they trials determined upon us, in order to strengthen our resolve against the tribulations that lie ahead of us ?! That's a horse of a different color, isn't it ?!

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

God chooses those who He knows will choose Him. God knows the hearts of all men and the future of all men.

 

[Neogaia777]

Many, many possibilities, with predestination "points" along the way... a "choice" point that God predestined you to arrive at...

Say you have a two o'clock business meeting on Friday, and it's Wednesday, there are an innumerable amount of smaller choices that you can make along the way, but all paths lead you to being at that meeting, a predestination point...

God Bless!

 

[Patmos]

Yes I agree that we can allow that hopelessness in our lives and yes I've been there and thank God for reminding me He is always there for us if we call on Him. It's a shame Calvinism is such a nihilist unbiblical belief and to have such a foolish doctrine to believe that God would predesignate anyone to hell. The fact is we all be destined hell if it wasn't for God's unfathomable grace. My heart goes out to you about your wife.

I agree totally, yet these guys come up with things like :-

The Westminster Confession of Faith: 1643
....
The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Chap. III — Art. VI and VII)

Read the hole lot, or any other reformed text and you soon get to double predestination.

Mention things like babies and young children being predestined to hell and the Calvy brigade do an about turn, double talk, any other trick or dodge you can think of.

So yes, nihilistic, unbiblical and foolish covers it.

Any one want evidence of the then take a look at "Explaining Calvinism thread in Soteriology"

 

[mikpat]

Man in this life is a wayfarer; he is on the road to seek Truth (Veritas) which is God. And by his own fault, may reject direction and fail to reach his true goal. Since seeking God is a supernatural task, he cannot reach it by his natural powers alone. He requires supernatural aid and when offered, he may refuse it.

The whole effect of predestination has as its cause in God, for all grace comes from Him to dispose a man for salvation. Man must cooperate with the saving will of God if he is to gain heaven. If we choose to do the will of God an use His grace to make wise and prudent decisions, we can pretty much count on gaining heaven, (a bit of predestination)
Otherwise uhhhhh, the guy with the pointed ears and trident may be visiting you.

11 Peter 1: 10 "Strive ….by good works to make your calling and election sure."

I am not a faith-based salvationist nor a works-based salvationist————the answer then is, we need both—-faith and good works.

Parapharsed from Aquinas.

AMDG

 

[mikpat]

Determinism — each one of our acts or choices are determined by the character of the agents plus the motives acting on him/them at the time. If I am a liberal person and I read the bible only, then I will seek out those biblical phrases that will jell with my liberal ideas——bending phrases, interpretations, translations.

Does God cause determinism————I suppose in a way since He would be the Agent causing a person to act in a certain way.
If one becomes a Baptist because he feels the Baptist philosophy will help him gain salvation……then the idea of worshipping God is influenced by his love for God. Go one step further and say that God gave him special graces to make such choices….. ad infinitum


AMDG