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Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

Albion

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Your mistake is thinking that the saved are the winners of some cosmic lottery. The scriptures are an instruction manual for living. Why would God give us these instructions about how to live a life pleasing to him for no reason?
It's not "for no reason." Doing God's will, abiding by God's laws, and following Jesus' teachings is right in itself--and applies to all men, regardless of whom God will save.
 
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Jan001

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God does not predestine any person to the second death/hell.
People condemn themselves to hell by their unrepentant evil works/deeds/fruits.

All men are made in the image and likeness of God, not just the predestined men.

Good Christians will "imitate" Jesus' obedience to His Father until they die. This is how we are to be "in the 'image' of the Son."

All people will be resurrected.


John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. rsv​
 
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Albion

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God does not predestine any person to the second death/hell.
..which is an issue that's separate from Election. I find plenty in Scripture to support Election but not this idea that's sometimes called "Double Predestination."
 
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Jan001

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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.



Three persons bear witness in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

I count three different persons who are God. These three persons are one God.

There is one God kind. Only Three Persons are in this one God kind.

There is one man kind, but there are billions of persons in this one man kind.



Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

A son cannot be His own father, so this has to mean that "Father" is used in a different manner than in the biological manner.

Paul was a non-biological father to the Church's members.

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. rsv​

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

The Scribe did not know that three different Persons are God. This was not revealed in the OT.

God is usually written in Scripture as a "He" instead of an "us."

However, God is three persons and they all work perfectly together as one God. They all agree exactly with each other about everything.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”​

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. nkjv
Holy Spirit, Lord Jesus Christ, and God the Father. All three Persons are God, but they are not all the same person.

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

Jesus represents His Father on earth. He and His Father think alike.
Jesus is not His own Father.
 
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mikpat

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Born Again, isn't it great to read the Bible on your own, filling in your own, private interpretations. WOW

Latin Petrus, "rock" = Peter
Greek Petros, "rock" = Peter
Engish Peter, "rock" = Peter
Aramaic Kipha, Kephas, Cephas = "rock" = Peter.


Mat 16: 18.
"Upon this "rock' (Peter=Cephas or Kephas) I will build my Church….."


AMDG
 
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Jan001

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I'd be happy to discuss this topic on a new thread. If you do start a new thread about this topic, you can pm me and I will join you there.
 
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Jan001

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You're rationalizing. Nothing there says that these are chosen or secure only because God knows from all eternity what they'll choose to do on their own (if that line of argument even makes sense in the first place).

You don't believe that God already knew everything that would happen about everything before He created the world?
 
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Albion

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You don't believe that God already knew everything that would happen about everything before He created the world?
Yes, I do. That, however, doesn't serve to prove or disprove either Free Will or Election.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Your argument is with God because I gave you scripture to prove that Jesus said He was the father. Case closed.
 
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mikpat

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Jan 001,

The understanding of the Holy Trinity is a matter of faith, it is a supernatural mystery and requires grace from God to believe and perhaps reason out. It's one of those topics that we can only discuss ever so slightly, polite exchanges. All you can do is explain your Catholic view and avoid arguing———usually a futile exchange.

Just a thought.

AMDG
 
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Jan001

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God lives in the eternal present. We on earth do not.

Before the foundation of the world, God knew exactly which of the people He'd later create on earth would still be found faithful to Him at the time of their death. These faithful-until-death people God predestined to inherit eternal life. These faithful-until-death people are His elect.
 
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Jan001

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Baloney. The real issue is that many unduly write off Trinitarian problems and apparent paradoxes to the mystery of God, when, in reality, they mostly stem from muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers.

"Muddled" thinking of the church fathers? These men who actually had the Holy Spirit guiding them into all the truth as promised by Jesus Christ?

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. rsv​


I'll stick with the teachings of the church fathers instead of any teachings anyone else can come up with on their own.
 
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mikpat

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Some questions——why would an infinite God—-as one poster stated—-omniscient, omnipotent, infinite in all HIS attributes, why would God work hard over several days creating a universe, animals and mankind, since He is perfection,,,He is perfectly happy. The best answer I received was in early grammar school.—-

"God made us to love Him, to serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him in heaven."
Humanly speaking, perhaps He wanted to share some of His pleasures——-

Humanly speaking,,He would create man——give him the ability to make decisions, choices that would lead man to heaven,salvation. Nobody predestined, no selected people, tribes, etc….and the Creator will help if needed…..

Those who love and obey God's wishes will receive their reward—-sort of like Elysium/The Elysian Fields. Those who failed to follow the Verbum Dei ———no hell, boiling oil, poked by the devils etc…….just a short judgment, then "poof"
gone, terminated……..body and soul.
The punishment that will be the greatest of all hurt———-not being able to see——-the "BEATIFIC VISION".

Ahhh,,I am a simple man with a simple plan——————AMDG
 
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Jan001

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Holy fear of God is a good thing.
And this is why Peter states:

Acts 10:34-35
And Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. rsv​

1 Peter 1:17
And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. rsv

1 Peter 4:17-19
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And
If the righteous man is scarcely saved,
where will the impious and sinner appear?

19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will do right and entrust their souls to a faithful Creator. rsv
And that is why Paul states:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
.....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,​

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; rsv
As for me, I'll keep entrusting my soul to my faithful creator while I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling, by doing right instead of wrong.
 
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mikpat

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Jan001

As you can see how easy it is to fall into the traps of the bible only crowd. They have the advantage of fitting the Bible into their personalities, biasnesses etc. rather than attempting to fit their opinion into the Bible, the Verbum Dei.

There are over 33,000 biblical organizations 33,000 interpretations by all sorts of opinionated persons———-

Like the old Senator said—-"Ther's a lottof muddled thinking and baloney goin on outdere."

Caveat,
If some one refers to another's response as "baloney' or "muddled thinking" best thing——avoid any further conversation and simply say your 'ad hominem" remarks do not deserve the dignity of a rely…..many are masters at bible jousting.

AMDG
 
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mikpat

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"Fear" is usually at the bottom of behavioral objectives in life, but it is a positive force as seen so often in the Old Testament.

The New Testament is based on the highest behavioral objective "love". Deus Est Caritas.

Love of Christ guides one towards salvation——a predestined path if you choose to walk on the path.
 
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Jan001

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Why do you think Jesus taught us to ask God the Father to "not lead us into temptation?" Would God do such a thing?

God does not tempt us. God allows us to be tempted by Satan or by our own desires.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; rsv

James 1:14
but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. rsv​

The Holy Spirit lead Jesus out into the wilderness, but the Holy Spirit did not tempt Jesus. The Holy Spirit allowed Satan to tempt Jesus in the wilderness.


Matthew 4:1
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. rsv

Mark 1:13
And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him. rsv


1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. rsv

Hebrews 2:18
For because he [Jesus] himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted. rsv



 
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Jan001

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The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was one of the garden's trees. There were many different trees in the garden.

Revelation 22:1-2
Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. rsv​


God could have forbidden them to eat the fruits of any of several different trees, but He only forbade them from eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and this was because it would harm them and they would no longer be innocent of sin.

Because of their sin, they immediately knew fear, guilt, and shame; none of these was God's desire for them.

Every angel was tested and some failed the test of loyalty to God. We call these fallen angels "demons" or "devils."

Every human being will have to choose either to obey or disobey God. Those who remain faithful to God and His commandments until death will be approved worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.

God will allow only the people who actually love Him/obey Him to live with Him forever.

God does not want slaves or puppets; He wants sons and daughters who freely love Him and obey Him.
 
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Jan001

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Asking God to take the lead in our lives is a start, for us to discover the intended function that God predestined us for.

I think God destines [designs] us all to be His obedient children, but He only predestined [predetermined] to eternal life those children who He knew would be found still faithful to Him and His commandments at the time of their death.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, rsv

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. rsv

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is
not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. rsv​
 
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Albion

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Your argument is with God because I gave you scripture to prove that Jesus said He was the father. Case closed.
I always wonder why people who are firmly committed to some unusual idea that they got from their own reading of the Bible never pause to reconsider in view of the fact that thousands of Bible scholars, linguists, and theologians, from almost the entire range of Christian denominations and across the centuries...have a different interpretation. It's not as though those experts haven't read the same verse and considered the same theory, you know.
 
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