Predestination/"Free Will"

bird · Apr 16, 2003

Today at 04:59 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #360

Really? Then talk to Paul that observed we are in the world not of it.

Jesus was kind to all the lost..but he limited His disciples.
God has ordained that those "kids" be in my care in my family.
There is nothing that they could do that would make me stop loving them. But that has no relationship Christian fellowship..i am mom as ordained by God..That is the role He has given to me, those are the children he has given to me.

That is a very different thing that choosing friends

 

momof7,   is a "role" all that god has given you?  where does the love you have for your children come from?

 

bird

rnmomof7 · Apr 16, 2003

Today at 12:55 PM bird said this in Post #361

 

momof7,   is a "role" all that god has given you?  where does the love you have for your children come from?

 

bird

I trust from God.....Because He gave them to me I was responsible before Him to love and care for them and to rear them in the church..and all were.

Today they are all grown and all over the country..I love them to bits..but if they were not my kids we would have not a thing in common.

bird..I do not have any unsaved close friends. I have people I like and care about..but no christian fellowship with them. We do not share the most important thing in our lives Jesus Christ..

bird · Apr 16, 2003

Yesterday at 09:09 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #362

I trust from God.....Because He gave them to me I was responsible before Him to love and care for them and to rear them in the church..and all were.

Today they are all grown and all over the country..I love them to bits..but if they were not my kids we would have not a thing in common.

bird..I do not have any unsaved close friends. I have people I like and care about..but no christian fellowship with them. We do not share the most important thing in our lives Jesus Christ..

 

if there are people on earth with no connection to christ...how did they come to be?

 

bird

Aaron11 · Apr 16, 2003

Did God create these people specifically for the purpose of damning them?

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Yesterday at 09:22 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #354

I was a catholic when i was saved... then I worshipped for years in an Arminian church
I was saved all that time.

It has been said that all of God's elect were Arminians prior to their conversion. For some it takes longer than others to recognize the enormity of God's undeserved mercy. I don't believe there will be any but Calvinists in heaven. ("Mom" knows what I am saying, for the rest of you let me suggest that you think good and hard about that statement prior to flaming me.)

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Yesterday at 09:04 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #364

Did God create these people specifically for the purpose of damning them?

God created all that exists for the express purpose of bringing glory to Himself.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
- Romans 9: 19-24

Aaron11 · Apr 17, 2003

Doesn't seem consistent with God's loving nature to create beings just to eternally torment without them having the choice.

frumanchu · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 09:54 AM Jerry_M said this in Post #365
It has been said that all of God's elect were Arminians prior to their conversion. For some it takes longer than others to recognize the enormity of God's undeserved mercy.

I can personally attest to that! It's not like many people are experts thoroughly studied in Scripture before they're converted. I was adamantly Arminian in my views for quite awhile after conversion until I spent more time in the word. I became a Calvinist before I really knew anything about the Reformation.

I don't believe there will be any but Calvinists in heaven. ("Mom" knows what I am saying, for the rest of you let me suggest that you think good and hard about that statement prior to flaming me.)

I agree Add my name to the list who "knows what you're saying."

frumanchu · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 10:08 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #367

Doesn't seem consistent with God's loving nature to create beings just to eternally torment without them having the choice.

We all have the choice...and we all make the same choice: to reject God and supress the truth. We sin because we want to, and as such we all justly deserve the eternal torment. If you claim that God is unjust because He allowed us the opportunity to do so knowing we would in fact do so, then your quarrel is with God and His Word, not with us

While God certainly could have chosen to elect all unto salvation, He was and is under no obligation to do so. If He were, there would be nothing gracious about it. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Anyone who takes pride in being the object of that mercy does not understand mercy at all.

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 08:08 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #367

Doesn't seem consistent with God's loving nature to create beings just to eternally torment without them having the choice.

You undersestimate the enormity of sin. We Calvinists understand that man is Totally depraved as a result of the fall. The unregenerate sinner does not want to love God, does not want to worship Him. That is why we so desperately need God's mercy.

However, I get the impression that you believe that we Calvinists don't believe God when He says that anyone who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. We affirm that anyone who repents of their sin and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. Yet, we know enough about the nature of fallen man to realize that he will never choose Christ on his own, so damaged (dead) is his spiritual ability. That is why he needs to be born again.

rnmomof7 · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 10:08 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #367

Doesn't seem consistent with God's loving nature to create beings just to eternally torment without them having the choice.

Aaron all men have a choice..all men do exactly as they will. God's hand restrains no man from coming to Him,
The question is WHO will choose (will) to come?

I recently heard a quote that I found interesting..let me run it by you

The speaker observed that their are degrees of sin..but there is no decrees of grace.
So mans insistance that it is not "fair" that God would not save all or intend to save all comes from our carnal sin nature, not from an understanding of mercy.

Aaron as we prepare for Easter read the 15th chapter of Luke .....do any of the lost come looking for their owner? or is the intent to show that the owner has an interest in finding and saving what is already His?

Aaron11 · Apr 17, 2003

No, I am not saying that sin does not deserve hell. I am only saying, why would God create someone who had no chance at fellowship in heaven?

Aaron11 · Apr 17, 2003

Unless I am misunderstanding your view of free will. Will you explain your view on free will to me?

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 09:09 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #373

Unless I am misunderstanding your view of free will. Will you explain your view on free will to me?

Free Will: One is perfectly free to do as they want.

Unregenerate sinners are free to do as they want, regenerate saints are free to do as they want. The unregenerate sinner wants nothing to do with the things of God, and refuses to worship Him. The regenerate saint wants to worship God and pants after Him like the deer pants after water.

All of us are free to do what we want. We will never choose to do what we don't want.

Do you have a differing definition of "Free Will"?

Aaron11 · Apr 17, 2003

No. Is that how you believe the world is?

Aaron11 · Apr 17, 2003

If you believe that we have free will... then I think we are in perfect agreement.

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 09:08 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #372

No, I am not saying that sin does not deserve hell. I am only saying, why would God create someone who had no chance at fellowship in heaven?

You have a problem here, I believe, and it is not with us.

Do you believe that men need to repent of their sins and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to have "fellowship in heaven"?

If so, then how about the countless millions who have lived and died in nations and during centuries in which there was no Christian witness? Do you think that people living in China in the 1st through 17th centuries ever heard the name of Jesus? How about the Aztecs and Mayas prior to Spanish conquest? How about the millions today who have no viable Christian witness in their lands?

Just the fact that God chose the Gospel as the mechanism to bring about salvation limits those with a "chance at fellowship in heaven". Those who never hear never get a "chance".

No, I would much rather belief the Biblical witness that God saves all those who are His, and ordains both the means and the results after the counsel of His will, rather than believe the salvation is a matter of "chance". He saves all those who are His, and none of those who belong to Him will perish.

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 09:21 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #375

No. Is that how you believe the world is?

Aaron, if you were to use the quote function, or otherwise reference wo whom you are responding, it would be much easier to know to whom your comments are directed. Was your comment to me, or to "Mom" or to someone else?

rnmomof7 · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 11:09 AM Aaron11 said this in Post #373

Unless I am misunderstanding your view of free will. Will you explain your view on free will to me?

Arron the only man that had a truely free will was Adam...that will was pure and innocent.
After the fall the wills of men were no longer really free they became slaves to sin.( their wills are in bondage)

Slaves always do what their masters tell them to. Men will serve sin , that is what they want to do, that is what the will to do.

It is not untill the will of man is changed by the grace of God that he will chose Christ.

Remember Jesus said you had to be BORN AGAIN to see the Kingdom of God? That is because men are so bound in sin they can not desire God untill they get that new heart.

You can not desire what you do not see or hear.

They do what they desire to do..but because of Adam what they will is to rebel and sin.

Aaron11 · Apr 17, 2003

mom,

OK, but we still have the choice to follow Him or not right? Because the more we talk, the more I realize that we probably agree on most all or all things.

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