Predestination/"Free Will"

Today at 02:13 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #234




If Jesus paid the complete penality for all men without exception how is it some will go to hell?

Click to expand...

People pay for the consequences for their sins all the time.  Thus "you reap what you sow".  However, the problems in your statement is the word "penalty".  Why do you think God is punitive rather that redemptive in the way He administers judgement?

Again, who did Jesus pay off?  The Father?  The devil?

Yesterday at 09:54 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #232




If God intended to save them why were they born at a time or place where they would never hear the gospel?

We keep coming back to the meaning of PAS

Click to expand...

How do you know they won't be saved?  Do you have a crystal ball?

Yesterday at 11:49 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #240

Bird,

God is a just God. Should their be no consequence for sin? That would be unjust. God also loves us more than we can imagine. So He sent His Son to be the consequence for our sin. This is a representation of God's loving and just nature. Is that worded in a way that you can understand?

Click to expand...

dear aaron,

 

thank you for your response.  i do indeed agree that god loves us more than we can imagine.   

 

bird

6th April 2003 at 03:41 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #221



Do any perish? Do ALL men without exception repent and come?
Is God unable to keep His promise?  

Scripture interprets scripture.

Click to expand...

 Inasmuch as I came here asking questions more than I did to answer them, or give my two cents worth...where do you find support for that principle in scripture? Or am I missing something that you said?

When Jesus taught He taught in parables that those 'without ears" could not understand the teachings..

Click to expand...

 This is what makes me wonder if I missed something. Because that quote very strongly tends to contradict the principle that the written word interprets the written word (I assume this is what you mean by scripture - if so, another question is what scripture did Abraham read that foretold the blessing of his entire seed?).

I will ask again if it is Gods WILL then why is it not accomplished? Did God mean this?

Click to expand...

 You seem very adamant that it isn't, nor will ever, be accomplished.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

Did Paul mean this?

1Cr 1:18__ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

How could it be foolishness if it is Gods will that all men without exception be saved?

Click to expand...

 I don't see the contradiction here. God's will is His desire. Paul here is not talking about His desires.

Is this true?

Isa 46:10__ Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:



God accomplishes what he wills ..Isn't that what this says?

Click to expand...

Absolutely.

Yesterday at 06:23 PM bird said this in Post #239
so jesus came to pay off the father?   kinda'  sounds like jesus came to save us from god....is that what you're saying?

Click to expand...

In a manner of speaking, yes. God is righteous enough to demand perfection in His presence, just enough to execute wrath upon the unrighteous, merciful enough to provide a means of escaping that wrath, and gracious enough to apply that means to whomever He chooses.

All sin is counted as a debt to God...one which no man can possibly repay. So yes...Christ "paid off" our debt to the Father.

The question is...whose debt did He pay off? He had more than enough in his account to pay off the sum total of the debt of mankind. But how much did He write the check for?

Yesterday at 07:14 PM Ragman said this in Post #241




People pay for the consequences for their sins all the time.  Thus "you reap what you sow". 

Click to expand...

We are not talking about earthly "natural" consequences here rag..we are discussing eternal ones. If Jesus paid the price for all mens sins then HE paid the consequence for their sin.. Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.



How could a just God demand double payment?Was the blood of Christ insufficent ?

However, the problems in your statement is the word "penalty".  Why do you think God is punitive rather that redemptive in the way He administers judgement?

Click to expand...

God is redemptive..He redeems those that are His..

Exd 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

But God gets to select the method of that redemptive work..you rag do not

I Thess. 1:10"He delivers us from the wrath to come."

Rom. 5:9,"Since we are now justified by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God."



Rag the wonder is not that all men are not saved ,but that any are

Again, who did Jesus pay off?  The Father?  The devil?

Click to expand...

God supplied the propitiation Himself. He "put Christ forward as a propitiation."

Yesterday at 07:16 PM Ragman said this in Post #242




How do you know they won't be saved?  Do you have a crystal ball?

Click to expand...

I am just going by what the word of God says..do you have better information:>)

Today at 06:56 AM nikolai_42 said this in Post #244



 Inasmuch as I came here asking questions more than I did to answer them, or give my two cents worth...where do you find support for that principle in scripture? Or am I missing something that you said?

Click to expand...

Not quite sure what principle you are asking about here.

Do you mean Scripture interprests scripture?

That is a traditional test of scripture study

"We understand Bible passages in the context of other Bible passages. If one passage looks like it might mean one thing, but that would contradict another Bible passage, then obviously that interpretation is wrong. When you understand the correct interpretation, then it will agree with the rest of the Holy Bible, because God doesn't contradict Himself and it is impossible for Him to lie".

 This is what makes me wonder if I missed something. Because that quote very strongly tends to contradict the principle that the written word interprets the written word (I assume this is what you mean by scripture - if so, another question is what scripture did Abraham read that foretold the blessing of his entire seed?).

Click to expand...

The bible (scripture) is the word of God
Abraham HEARD the word of God..by the voice of God ..we have the word of God written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit..

 You seem very adamant that it isn't, nor will ever, be accomplished.

Click to expand...

I assume you mean that all men will not be saved?
Yes I am adament (I read the end of the book)

 I don't see the contradiction here. God's will is His desire. Paul here is not talking about His desires.

Click to expand...

Gods will is whatever He desires..the question at hand is the meaning of the words all {PAS} and World{ KOSMOS}

IF it is Gods will and desire that all men without exception be saved..and salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the word. of God .and if God says His word always accomplishes what He desires..THEN

Obviously it is not His will that all {pas} men without exception be saved , because not all men will be saved

Today at 12:22 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #248



Not quite sure what principle you are asking about here.

Do you mean Scripture interprests scripture?

That is a traditional test of scripture study

"We understand Bible passages in the context of other Bible passages. If one passage looks like it might mean one thing, but that would contradict another Bible passage, then obviously that interpretation is wrong. When you understand the correct interpretation, then it will agree with the rest of the Holy Bible, because God doesn't contradict Himself and it is impossible for Him to lie".

Click to expand...

 Traditional, maybe. Correct, though? Seems to me that the only correct test of scripture is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And as for Abraham, the scripture came to him. 'Tweren't the written letter - as you pointed out. TRUE Scripture is not the letter - it is the Spirit that inspired it.

Today at 07:53 AM nikolai_42 said this in Post #249




 Traditional, maybe. Correct, though? Seems to me that the only correct test of scripture is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And as for Abraham, the scripture came to him. 'Tweren't the written letter - as you pointed out. TRUE Scripture is not the letter - it is the Spirit that inspired it.

Click to expand...

Have you ever taken a Old Testament or New Testiment Survey class? I have taken them in a couple different places and under different doctrianl teachings..but the one thing they all agree on is God can not contradict himself..so Scripture supports and interpret scripture.We would agree that it is the Holy Spirit that leads you into all truth..and He should always be asked to teach you as you go along..BUT If you believe the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit then scripture will interpret scripture, and it will keep you from falling into error.

Yours is a dangerous position.. a position that leads to false doctrine ..the Mormons all trust "the burning breast sign" .The cults all claim to have an entire revelation built upon a PERSONAL revelation of a hand ful of scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God..It is a God breathed revelation....

But the canon is closed now God has revealed all we need to know Him, understand Him and come to salvation.

If you do not check EVERY teaching against the scriptures you will be led into error..and that is the bottom line!


Hbr 11:3__ Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Today at 04:02 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #250




Have you ever taken a Old Testament or New Testiment Survey class? I have taken them in a couple different places and under different doctrianl teachings..but the one thing they all agree on is God can not contradict himself..so Scripture supports and interpret scripture.We would agree that it is the Holy Spirit that leads you into all truth..and He should always be asked to teach you as you go along..BUT If you believe the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit then scripture will interpret scripture, and it will keep you from falling into error.

Yours is a dangerous position.. a position that leads to false doctrine ..the Mormons all trust "the burning breast sign" .The cults all claim to have an entire revelation built upon a PERSONAL revelation of a hand ful of scriptures.

Click to expand...

 The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit. To cling to the understanding of man is also dangerous. As can be seen by the diversity of denominations in the Christian church. As Jesus told the Pharisees (and nothing has changed today - which Paul pointed out in 2 Cor 3), "Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life. And these are they which testify of me."

Granted, the Lord does not lie, but to make quick judgements on certain things regarding doctrine without spiritual confirmation  is still using the mind of man. Spirit can only be tested by spirit and the Word of God is no different. So one can just as easily fall into error with the mind of man (not requiring spiritual discernment) as one can with a lying spirit.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God..It is a God breathed revelation....

But the canon is closed now God has revealed all we need to know Him, understand Him and come to salvation.

Click to expand...

 All we need is in Him, not in a book. In the revelation of Jesus Christ through the bible. Satan masquerades as an angel of light - and no man's mind can discern this. Only the Spirit of God can. Only by knowing this Spirit can we discern who (what) is of God and who (what) is of God.

If you do not check EVERY teaching against the scriptures you will be led into error..and that is the bottom line!


Hbr 11:3__ Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Click to expand...

 Yes...through faith.

Today at 05:19 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #251



 The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit. To cling to the understanding of man is also dangerous. As can be seen by the diversity of denominations in the Christian church. As Jesus told the Pharisees (and nothing has changed today - which Paul pointed out in 2 Cor 3), "Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life. And these are they which testify of me."

Click to expand...

THAT is why you MUST study to prove yourself approved..
The "problem is not with the slight variations in the creedal faiths..the problem is with those that decided reading one verse that there is no trinity..or that god was once a man and has a boby or that jessu is not God but the son of God..

All of these cults came at the hands of men that did not know how to rightly divide the word of truth..they relyed on PERSONAL revelation.

How did Jesus teach? Do a word search and see how often He ..God Almighty relied on the Torah.

The word containes the entire counsel of God..and those that study it , do well to search it's pages to be certain that other scripture teaches the same doctrine .

Granted, the Lord does not lie, but to make quick judgements on certain things regarding doctrine without spiritual confirmation  is still using the mind of man. Spirit can only be tested by spirit and the Word of God is no different. So one can just as easily fall into error with the mind of man (not requiring spiritual discernment) as one can with a lying spirit.

Click to expand...

I am sorry but that sounds like spiritual mumbo jumbo..no one is talking about "quick judgements" We are talking about searching the scriptures for TRUTH .

So do you believe that the mormons are right because they have the burning breast test?

The Holy Spirit will LEAD us to the truth..but if you have a faith that is based on feelings i would remind you that God did not give your your brain to hold your hair up.
I would say you are morte likely to fall into error by relying on FEELING" than on the sure word of God
The heart is deceitful and will lie to you..but the INSPIRED word of God stands.
What if we have a different confirmation , and we both believe we are hearing from the Holy Spirit? How do we decide truth?

 All we need is in Him, not in a book. In the revelation of Jesus Christ through the bible. Satan masquerades as an angel of light - and no man's mind can discern this. Only the Spirit of God can. Only by knowing this Spirit can we discern who (what) is of God and who (what) is of God.



 Yes...through faith.

Click to expand...

I think one that trusts their feelings over Gods word are on very thin ice.

How did the eaqrly Chrurch decide what was true ?
Did they rely on "feelings"?

Jesus said

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
-

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures,
nor the power of God.



How about the disciples?
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,


Note what is said of those that study scripture

Act 17:11__ These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


They taught and tested EVERYTHING by the Word

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Yesterday at 09:54 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #247



I am just going by what the word of God says..do you have better information:&gt

Click to expand...

Yes, the Bible says different.  The Spirit of God says different.  Paul says different. Jesus says different. Athanasisus says different.  Ireneaus says different.  Just about everybody except Calvanists say different.

Today at 07:31 PM Ragman said this in Post #253




Yes, the Bible says different.  The Spirit of God says different.  Paul says different. Jesus says different. Athanasisus says different.  Ireneaus says different.  Just about everybody except Calvanists say different.

Click to expand...

Paul taught "Calvinism", Jesus taught "calvinism" Augustine and Luther taught it..now it is your turn..
Study to prove yourself approved Rag!

rnmomof7,

do you believe in free will?

Yesterday at 07:31 PM Ragman said this in Post #253




Yes, the Bible says different.  The Spirit of God says different.  Paul says different. Jesus says different. Athanasisus says different.  Ireneaus says different.  Just about everybody except Calvanists say different.

Click to expand...

This is not true. And if you will humor me and read all the following scripture before you comment. You see, I once believed the same way you do. But when I finally came to the end of myself and read the bible as God's Holy Word, not something I could turn and twist to suit me, with His guidance I saw the plain truth for what it was.

See my signature, it was written by Paul through inspiration from God. Also see the following:

Words and teaching from Jesus:
Matthew 24:22-24 22“And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24“For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31 31“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 18:6&7 6Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7“And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

From Paul:
Romans 11:6&7 6And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded


Colossians 3:12 2Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

2Timothy 2:10 10Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

These verses clearly show that His elect will be saved and others will not.

Romans 8:30 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:11 11In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Predestined - "marked out beforehand" But why? Is it because, as many say, He looked into the future and saw that we would choose Him, so he chose us? Doesn't that leave God reacting to us, His creation? Or is He truly sovereign? Sovereign- all powerful, needing nothing from outside of itself, or in this case Himself.

We see that God chooses us not according to anything we do or will do, or may do. He chooses us according to His will for his pleasure alone. See here: Romans 9:13-21 13As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Shall I go on?

Yesterday at 11:25 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #255

rnmomof7,

do you believe in free will?

Click to expand...

Yes I believe man was created with free will..but the only man that had an absolutely free will was Adam. He had the ability not to choose sin.

Since the fall mans will is bound (as luther put it). It has lost the choice not to sin..all man are now sinners.


Untill a man is regenerated or "born again" his bound will remains.

The question is not does man have a free will ..but what will he will?

Today at 09:51 AM Gabriel said this in Post #256



This is not true. And if you will humor me and read all the following scripture before you comment. You see, I once believed the same way you do. But when I finally came to the end of myself and read the bible as God's Holy Word, not something I could turn and twist to suit me, with His guidance I saw the plain truth for what it was.

See my signature, it was written by Paul through inspiration from God. Also see the following:

Shall I go on?

Click to expand...

Excellent post ..thank you

This raises serious questions about God. Why would God choose a person before they existed? Did he create some people just to go to hell? Or was God saying He chose those who will choose Him?

(In reference to predestination)

Yesterday at 06:56 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #254




Paul taught "Calvinism", Jesus taught "calvinism" Augustine and Luther taught it..now it is your turn..
Study to prove yourself approved Rag!

Click to expand...

Paul certainly did not preach Calvinism, nor did Jesus, Augustine did and I'll check on Luther.

Do you imply that when someone disagrees with Calvinism and you that they have not studied the Word, they are not approved?  I have studied.  I am approved, but I'm not approved because I have studied.  I am approved because the Son of God laid hold of me in His incarnation, became sin and gave me a share in His relationship with His Father.  This He has done for the entire human race.  This He has done....even for Calvinists!  This is our only hope.