Predestination/"Free Will"

[rnmomof7]

Yesterday at 11:04 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #218



 On this we fully agree.





  So what of 2 Peter 3:9 ?

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Do any perish? Do ALL men without exception repent and come?
Is God unable to keep His promise?

 2 Peter 3:9

 Now it is shown that in Timothy there is a positive sense of God's will (He DOES will that all men come to a knowledge of the truth), and in 2 Peter, a negative sense of His will (He does NOT WILL that ANY perish) in regards to the salvation of men.Why not use the word many? It has been used many times in the NT Greek and without ambiguity (i.e. not meaning a few, and not meaning all).

 

Scripture interprets scripture.

When Jesus taught He taught in parables that those 'without ears" could not understand the teachings..

I will ask again if it is Gods WILL then why is it not accomplished? Did God mean this?

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

Did Paul mean this?

1Cr 1:18__ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

How could it be foolishness if it is Gods will that all men without exception be saved?

Is this true?

Isa 46:10__ Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:



God accomplishes what he wills ..Isn't that what this says?

 

[drstevej]

Yesterday at 12:31 PM decenso said this in Post #211

Other than Pharoah in Romans, what other references in the NT speak of INDIVIDUALS being predestined, i.e, in contrast to the corporate predestination of a body referred to in Ephesians 1?

Acts 13:48 As many as were appointed unto eternal life, believed.

Note the sequence... appointing then belief.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 08:29 AM Ragman said this in Post #219




Who did Jesus pay off for sin?  God?  The devil?  Who are you suggesting that Jesus "paid" when He "paid" for sin? 

One of the problems of western christianity is our insistence to make the incarnation and cross and legal matter when it is not.  It is an organic/personal problem not a legal problem.  To be sure we are sinners, but God's rationale is not "How do I get them off the hook" but "how do we heal them so they can enjoy the life that I have in myself, that is shared between the Father, Son and Spirit?"  The grid through which we westerners see the gospel has been so influenced with that of Augustine and Tertullian, not to mention Plato, that we have such a hard time seeing it any other way.  We actually think that "holy" means that God cannot look at sin.  That God can't have anything to do with us because we are sinners.  That until Jesus comes and "takes a whipping" from the Father on our behalf, God won't like us.  We have created this pyscho/schitzophrenic God who is mad as h*ll at us until Jesus comes along, yet somehow He's loving, then He gets nice and gracious, but only because Jesus came and bore all of His wrath which God intended for us.  Yet He still will send (because He created them for this purpose) the majority of the human race to be tormented in hell for eternity with no chance of getting out, and this somehow gives Him pleasure.

Is it any wonder why the world is not listening to us.  This legal view is as crazy as any horror movie that has ever been made.  Yet we westerners are soaking it up.

The atonement was not an agreement between God and man, it was an agreement between the Father and the Son. The wrath of God against man was so great that there was NOTHING any man could do to assuage the rage and wrath of God. So the Son was selected and agreed to come to eath and to take the punishment that man deserved..In effect he took the death penality, that I deserve for me .

The majority of the world was never intended to "listen to us"
That does not mean it is not true. Truth is not determined by popular vote, or consensus.
God did determine a way to "heal sinners" . They needed to be born again as new creations.

Now this may not be how you would have done it if you were God. But seeing you are not we only have one way..and Jesus told us HE is "the WAY the TRUTH and the light..NO MAN comes to the father BUT by me"

When you get to be god you can make your own way

Ragman why are you so angry with God?

 

[bird]

Today at 07:41 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #221



Do any perish? Do ALL men without exception repent and come?
Is God unable to keep His promise?


Scripture interprets scripture.

When Jesus taught He taught in parables that those 'without ears" could not understand the teachings..

I will ask again if it is Gods WILL then why is it not accomplished? Did God mean this?

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

Did Paul mean this?

1Cr 1:18__ For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

How could it be foolishness if it is Gods will that all men without exception be saved?

Is this true?

Isa 46:10__ Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:



God accomplishes what he wills ..Isn't that what this says?

momof7,

 

why is it, and how is it that you seem so certain that god has limited his grace? 

 

bird

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 03:17 PM bird said this in Post #224





momof7,

 

why is it, and how is it that you seem so certain that god has limited his grace? 

 

bird

bird

All men are the beneficiaries of Gods general grace..as all of us look around us we can see that.

What do you suppose would be the result of all men having His saving grace?

 

[nikolai_42]

Today at 03:26 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #220

What of those that never hear the gospel? What of the Muslims today or the Bush man in the 1700"s?

"  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

...

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

...

 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

 Romans 1:20,21,25,29-32

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 05:30 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #226



"  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

...

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

...

 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

 Romans 1:20,21,25,29-32

That is correct they are lost...so did God desire them to be saved?

 

[bird]

Today at 08:56 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #225


bird

All men are the beneficiaries of Gods general grace..as all of us look around us we can see that.

What do you suppose would be the result of all men having His saving grace?

i think there is only one kind of grace.  and we know that man judges by the outward appearance but god looks at the heart.  i think often of paul's words in II cor. 5:14-21 and i remember the day i began to read it differently than i used to read it before.

 

"for the love of christ compels us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:  and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.  wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:  yea, though we have known christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.  therefore if any man be in christ, he is a new creature:  old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  and all things are of god, who has reconciled us to himself by jesus christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that god was in christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.  now then we are ambassadors for christ, as though god did beseech you by us:  we pray you in christ's stead, be ye reconciled to god.  for he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of god in him."

 

if we look around us with our natural eyes, things seem very dark indeed....it looks rather like the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket....but that is when i most need to remember paul's words..."henceforth know we no man after the flesh..."

for truly, god was in christ, reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them...and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 

 

bird

 

"

 

[Ragman]

Today at 01:53 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #223


The atonement was not an agreement between God and man, it was an agreement between the Father and the Son. The wrath of God against man was so great that there was NOTHING any man could do to assuage the rage and wrath of God. So the Son was selected and agreed to come to eath and to take the punishment that man deserved..In effect he took the death penality, that I deserve for me .

The majority of the world was never intended to "listen to us"
That does not mean it is not true. Truth is not determined by popular vote, or consensus.
God did determine a way to "heal sinners" . They needed to be born again as new creations.

Now this may not be how you would have done it if you were God. But seeing you are not we only have one way..and Jesus told us HE is "the WAY the TRUTH and the light..NO MAN comes to the father BUT by me"

When you get to be god you can make your own way

Ragman why are you so angry with God?

Mom of 7:

I'm not angry with God at all.  I am amazed at His love and grace.

However, my question was who did Jesus pay off for sin?  God?  The devil?  In the post that generated this question you said that Jesus paid for sin, who did He pay?

I agree that the atonement is not an agreement between God and man.  It is out of the great love of the Father, Son and Spirit that mankind was created and redeemed.

You made the comment that God did determine a way to heal "sinners" they needed to be born again as new creations.  I completely agree!!!  That is exactly what He has accomplished in His Son. 

1. In the death of the Son we died. 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:  2. In the resurrection of the Son we were born again. 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

What makes this amazing work possible was the fact the the One who died and rose again was not just a perfect man, but the One by whom ALL THINGS came into being and the One in whom ALL THINGS CONSIST.  This same One becomes Man, unites Himself with His creation in union, this is the very heart of the incarnation. 

As for whether or not the whole world was intended to listen

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe. and

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is.....not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

 

[Ragman]

Today at 02:56 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #225


bird

All men are the beneficiaries of Gods general grace..as all of us look around us we can see that.

What do you suppose would be the result of all men having His saving grace?

General grace vs. Saving Grace...hmmmmm I smell something Platonic here.  How bout the chapter vs. on that general/saving grace distinction.

 

[Ragman]

Today at 04:58 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #227



That is correct they are lost...so did God desire them to be saved?

Yes!

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe. and

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is.....not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 06:26 PM Ragman said this in Post #231



Yes!

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe. and

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is.....not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God intended to save them why were they born at a time or place where they would never hear the gospel?

We keep coming back to the meaning of PAS

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 06:22 PM bird said this in Post #228




i think there is only one kind of grace.  and we know that man judges by the outward appearance but god looks at the heart.  i think often of paul's words in II cor. 5:14-21 and i remember the day i began to read it differently than i used to read it before.

 

"for the love of christ compels us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:  and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.  wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:  yea, though we have known christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.  therefore if any man be in christ, he is a new creature:  old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  and all things are of god, who has reconciled us to himself by jesus christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that god was in christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation.  now then we are ambassadors for christ, as though god did beseech you by us:  we pray you in christ's stead, be ye reconciled to god.  for he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of god in him."

 

if we look around us with our natural eyes, things seem very dark indeed....it looks rather like the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket....but that is when i most need to remember paul's words..."henceforth know we no man after the flesh..."

for truly, god was in christ, reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them...and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 

 

bird

 

"

I think all Christian churches teach there is more than one kind of grace..You may want to look into that .

 

[rnmomof7]

4th April 2003 at 06:49 PM Mandy said this in Post #207




LOL, not even close to what I said.  My point was that one cannot divide God's attributes or character.  Jesus paid the penalty for everyone, period. 

If Jesus paid the complete penality for all men without exception how is it some will go to hell?

 

[decenso]

Yesterday at 02:47 PM drstevej said this in Post #222




Acts 13:48 As many as were appointed unto eternal life, believed.

Note the sequence... appointing then belief.

That's a good one but J.O. Buswell stated that the passive participle TETAGMENOI may mean 'ready', or 'prepared'.

I was hoping for some better texts about INDIVIDUAL election in the NT.

 

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 04:29 PM decenso said this in Post #235




That's a good one but J.O. Buswell stated that the passive participle TETAGMENOI may mean 'ready', or 'prepared'.

I was hoping for some better texts about INDIVIDUAL election in the NT.

 

The Bible is full of individual election me thinks you just prefer not to see it

Why Paul and not Pilot?

Rom 8:30__ Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[bird]

Today at 08:13 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #234




If Jesus paid the complete penality for all men without exception how is it some will go to hell?

 

who did jesus pay?  and why?

 

bird

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 05:03 PM bird said this in Post #237




 

who did jesus pay?  and why?

 

bird

There was nothing man could do to assuage the wrath of God..so Jesus came in our place to be a propitiation (wrath bearer ) for us.

 

[bird]

Today at 11:05 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #238



There was nothing man could do to assuage the wrath of God..so Jesus came in our place to be a propitiation (wrath bearer ) for us.

so jesus came to pay off the father?   kinda'  sounds like jesus came to save us from god....is that what you're saying?

 

bird

 

[Aaron11]

Bird,

God is a just God. Should their be no consequence for sin? That would be unjust. God also loves us more than we can imagine. So He sent His Son to be the consequence for our sin. This is a representation of God's loving and just nature. Is that worded in a way that you can understand?