Predestination? Doesn't God want all to be saved?

[bling]

This brings us to the age old question:

"Why did God create Adam and Eve knowing full well they were going to fail Him?"

Humans never/ever sinning was not the man’s objective. Sin has purpose in helping some willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

God is not to blame.


I do not know your theology, so under your belief why would God’s perfect “justice” not require everyone to go to hell?

If you feel God’s perfect justice allows Christ to take your place, what kind of “justice system” would have an innocent person be tortured, humiliated and murdered and allow the guilty person to go free?

I do belief in God’s perfect justice, but I also believe in God willingness to forgive everyone that will humbly accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity (as God overs it). Forgiveness is not atonement and Christ was the atonement sacrifice.

I'll let you in on the secret. Don't tell anybody else.

The idea that Christ's sacrifice is a substitution for our own punishment is, as you say, actually unsustainable. That's not justice. But it is used, and it has every appearance of being the fact, so it isn't exactly untrue to use it . . . . but there is a deeper explanation.

God is willing to actually forgive and let people into heaven when they repent. But the law wouldn't allow that. So God has to pay the penalty from breaking the law. And that is why God (in Christ) has to die on the cross . . . its His own letting guilty people into heaven that makes it appropriate for Him to suffer that.

Don't let anybody else hear about this. Its a secret.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'll let you in on the secret. Don't tell anybody else.

The idea that Christ's sacrifice is a substitution for our own punishment is, as you say, actually unsustainable. That's not justice. But it is used, and it has every appearance of being the fact, so it isn't exactly untrue to use it . . . . but there is a deeper explanation.

God is willing to actually forgive and let people into heaven when they repent. But the law wouldn't allow that. So God has to pay the penalty from breaking the law. And that is why God (in Christ) has to die on the cross . . . its His own letting guilty people into heaven that makes it appropriate for Him to suffer that.

Don't let anybody else hear about this. Its a secret.

It appears that you view salvation as being dependent upon repentance and not merely as a free gift of God's grace to undeserving sinners. How much repentance is required to get into heaven?

 

[bling]

I'll let you in on the secret. Don't tell anybody else.

The idea that Christ's sacrifice is a substitution for our own punishment is, as you say, actually unsustainable. That's not justice. But it is used, and it has every appearance of being the fact, so it isn't exactly untrue to use it . . . . but there is a deeper explanation.

God is willing to actually forgive and let people into heaven when they repent. But the law wouldn't allow that. So God has to pay the penalty from breaking the law. And that is why God (in Christ) has to die on the cross . . . its His own letting guilty people into heaven that makes it appropriate for Him to suffer that.

Don't let anybody else hear about this. Its a secret.

Who made up this “Law” that even God could not rewrite?

Are you suggesting: God just did not think this “Law” through enough to realize He would eventually have to send Christ to the cross to “pay off” this Law?

Is God Love not great enough, God’s knowledge so un-planned or God’s power was to week, for God not to be able to just forgive our sins without the need for Christ to go to the cross?

If Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder paid the penalty, why would God still need to forgive us?

How is Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered any “satisfaction” to God?

 

[ToBeBlessed]

The Lutheran Confessions teach that God genuinely wants all people- each and every individual- to be saved. And we also believe that each and every individual's sins were paid for on the cross.

But we also believe in predestination and in the inability of sinful humans to cooperate in becoming regenerate.

How?

We believe God's eternal will and Christ's death are not automatically applied to all people, but come to people through the church and her ministry of word and sacrament. The preaching of the law kills the old Adam; the preaching of the gospel raises the new person in Christ; the administration of baptism joins us to Christ's death and resurrection. In each of those actions, God, not humans, is the one performing the act. Humans may be able to kill themselves (although this is a 'preface' to salvation, not salvation itself), but they cannot kill themselves in such a way that joins them to Christ, and they certainly cannot raise themselves from the dead to new life in Christ. God does those things in the church's ministry of word and sacrament without cooperation from the sinner. The sinner can resist, and many do, but the success of this divine surgery is dependent on the how, when, where, and whether the person encounters the word preached in its fullness and the degree to which that person resists.

Notice that here predestination could potentially apply to anyone and everyone who is killed by the law (something they could resist by being stubborn) and is raised by the gospel (something they could resist by being in doubt). It is a doctrine of God's victory over human sin, a doctrine of comfort and security, not a doctrine that can keep you up at night. Are you baptized? Then God has chosen you!

Notice, too, that this is less a doctrine of predestination in the distant past than it is a doctrine of election in our present. We speak about predestination because of what God does for us here and now simply because he is outside of time.

But at no point do we fall into the other trap, that humans cooperate in becoming regenerate. What this all means for human cooperation in sanctification is a whole different story (and it really depends on how you look at it, and it may be different in different people).

In terms of TULIP, this means Lutherans believe:

Total Depravity: Yes
Unconditional Election: Yes?
Limited Atonement: Absolutely not.
Irresistible Grace: No, but not because of cooperation.
Perseverance of the Saints: No.

That makes for one powerful pastor. Can't get to heaven without the church/pastor?

 

[James Is Back]

That makes for one powerful pastor. Can't get to heaven without the church/pastor?

Wouldn't that make him a Super Pastor

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It appears that you view salvation as being dependent upon repentance and not merely as a free gift of God's grace to undeserving sinners. How much repentance is required to get into heaven?

I'm not aware of a percentage scale measuring repentance. Nobody gets into heaven without repenting. You think people who are not sorry for their sins can get into heaven?

God will decide if the repentance is sufficient.

 

[seeingeyes]

check mate! God does not love everyone. END THREAD.

This is a big problem.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not aware of a percentage scale measuring repentance. Nobody gets into heaven without repenting. You think people who are not sorry for their sins can get into heaven?

God will decide if the repentance is sufficient.

Please tell me specifically where in the Bible it states that one must repent of one's sins in order to be saved. Please note, that repentance (metanoia in Greek is a change of mind) so that I am not asking where it states that one must repent (change one's mind) but must repent of one's sins. I am looking specifically for any instance where it states that one must "repent of one's sins".

Thank you.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Please tell me specifically where in the Bible it states that one must repent of one's sins in order to be saved. Please note, that repentance (metanoia in Greek is a change of mind) so that I am not asking where it states that one must repent (change one's mind) but must repent of one's sins. I am looking specifically for any instance where it states that one must "repent of one's sins".

Thank you.

You think that repenting can be possible without repenting of sin?

 

[Rick Otto]

bbbbbbb, I think Paul is basicaly correct.
Repentance in it's broadest sense is to turn from unbelief to belief.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

bbbbbbb, I think Paul is basicaly correct.
Repentance in it's broadest sense is to turn from unbelief to belief.

Thank you for your vote.

Of course, "belief" in the context of saving faith is never merely having an opinion about certain truths.

As James reminded us, the devils "believe" and tremble.

However, they don't . . . . repent.

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbbbb, I think Paul is basicaly correct.
Repentance in it's broadest sense is to turn from unbelief to belief.

However, what he, and many others, believe, is more than merely turning from unbelief to belief (having a change of mind) but turning from sins to righteous living. Turning over a new leaf, as it were, and cleaning up your act.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You think that repenting can be possible without repenting of sin?

Of course. Metanoia is used concerning changing one's mind about any number of things. I can change my mind about who to vote for in the upcoming election without repenting of my sins in order to do so.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Of course. Metanoia is used concerning changing one's mind about any number of things. I can change my mind about who to vote for in the upcoming election without repenting of my sins in order to do so.

But such a change would not result in the salvation of your soul. Please, share with us the metanoia you feel one can make that would result in the salvation of the soul and does NOT involve a desire to live a life away from sin.

 

[98cwitr]

This is a big problem.

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[seeingeyes]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

The problem comes when Jesus commands us to love our enemies.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But such a change would not result in the salvation of your soul. Please, share with us the metanoia you feel one can make that would result in the salvation of the soul and does NOT involve a desire to live a life away from sin.

Certainly. On numerous occasions in the Old Testament God is stated to have repented. Does this mean that God had sinned and needed to repent in order to save His soul?

Back to my original question. Please tell us precisely where it states that one must repent of his sin in order for his soul to be saved.

 

[Rick Otto]

Certainly. On numerous occasions in the Old Testament God is stated to have repented. Does this mean that God had sinned and needed to repent in order to save His soul?

Back to my original question. Please tell us precisely where it states that one must repent of his sin in order for his soul to be saved.

Your question puts the cart before the horse.
Repentance is the result of having been given eternal life (being saved).

 

[James Is Back]

I see page 23 why can't I get to it?