Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

[depthdeception]

I speak of sufficiency and he says infallibility and then says I post up the strawmen. Twaddle.

33...How is this not a strawman?

 

[Elect]

Usually when someone mentions "predestination" they do not have the biblical concept in mind, but rather the Reformed doctrine. The concept is that no plan of God can be thwarted, thus what God purposes and plans is predestined to occur. Thus the concept can be applied to any prophecy, for when God promises something, He fulfills it, He causes it to happen. Take Christ dying on the cross. According to 1 Peter 1:19-20, God knew before the foundation of the world, hence before creation, that Christ would shed His blood as a Lamb. This meshes well with Peter's words in Acts 2:23 which say Jesus the Nararene was "delivered over by the predestined plan and foreknowledge of God...." So Christ's death, his shedding of blood, was God's plan from before the creation. So while the Jews conspired and the Romans drove the nails, no one took Christ's life, He laid it down because of the command of His Father, John 10:18. Behold the Lamb of God...

Van,

Did God foreknew so He predestinate it or did He predestinate it so He foreknew?

 

[depthdeception]

I reposted my remarks and they speak for themselves

!!!!! They speak for themselves--how? Because you believe them to be "plainly" communicated, and therefore infallibly able to be interpreted unless someone deliberately distorts them?

 

[depthdeception]

I believe in the Nicene Creed, I think it represents the plain meaning of scriptures. And DD does too, so his argument lacks integrety.

No, I believe the Nicene Creed because I have chosen to submit myself to the authority of the Church in regards to the matters outlined within it.

 

[psalms 91]

In order to discuss predestination correctly you must also include foreknowledge, we are predestined because of Gods foreknowledge of the choices we will make, we are free to make any choice we want but God already knows the choices we will make and we are therefore predestined. Also prophecy comes true for the exact same reasons and it says that God is not a liar so the inspired Word of God does not lie. What is written will happen.

 

[depthdeception]

All Reformed Christians as far as I can see agree with you that the fall was indeed part of God's plan .
And as you say , from God's perspective (God meant it for good) it was for the salvation of the human race , I see no way around this .

Hmm...perhaps someone could assume that God was capable of saving the human race with damning a select number to hell. It's a crazy thought, I know...For all the Reformed talk about God's "sovereignty," they sure make God's decisions contingent upon that which God has created...

Perhaps those who are offended that God should have a purpose for permitting sin would care to explain the connection between the Knowledge of God and sin .......... because it seems a waste of time to me to just say "you are wrong" without saying why.....

No one argues with the "premitting." It is the eternal ordaining bit that is philosophically absurd.

also it would help communication if it is possible to remind ourselves to season our words with salt ........ otherwise nothing but conflict will ensue which can only drive people away.

LoL, yes, this is certainly a powerful statement coming from YOU.

the starting point could be summed up ; did God know for certain Adam would fall > Yes or no

You're jumping the gun. First you must define "know."

 

[Tabatha2121]

No, I believe the Nicene Creed because I have chosen to submit myself to the authority of the Church in regards to the matters outlined within it.

You're on this website a lot so I assume you are a student without a job or family?

 

[holdon]

You're on this website a lot so I assume you are a student without a job or family?

And what's that got to do with the subject at hand???

 

[Van]

DD, if yolu believe in the Nicene Creed, you accept the plain meaning of scriptures as discerned by a whole lot of believers. Game set and match.

 

[depthdeception]

You're on this website a lot so I assume you are a student without a job or family?

Actually, I work full time, go to school full time (Master's program), and have a wife and brand new baby daughter.

 

[Van]

Hi Elect, great question. Thanks for providing an opportunity to return discuss to the topic of the thread.
First we need to agree of the meaning of the word, foreknew. Using todays dictionary, it includes the idea of knowing what will happen in the future. But when the term translated as foreknew is used in the New Testament, it means to know something beforehand. So it is an acknowledgment of information or a plan acquired or formulated in the past and using it in the present, and has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge of the future. Instead what is being said is things are happening in the present based on plans or knowledge from the past.

So, in answer to your question when God makes plans for the future, they are predestined. When God fulfills those plans, they are by the foreknowledge of God.

 

[depthdeception]

DD, if yolu believe in the Nicene Creed, you accept the plain meaning of scriptures as discerned by a whole lot of believers. Game set and match.

Give me a break. My acceptance of the Nicene Creed has nothing to do with a belief that it is the "plain meaning of Scripture." Rather, as I mentioned before (perhaps you missed it...), I accept the Nicene Creed b/c I deliberately place myself under the authority of the Church in that matter. Therefore, any reference to Scripture in relation to this matter has nothing to do with a belief that the Church somehow properly accessed the "objective, absolute" interpretation. Rather, I believe the Church's authority to be sufficient to direct me as to how to interpret Scripture in relation to the items demarcated by the Creed.

 

[Van]

In order to discuss predestination correctly you must also include foreknowledge, we are predestined because of Gods foreknowledge of the choices we will make, we are free to make any choice we want but God already knows the choices we will make and we are therefore predestined. Also prophecy comes true for the exact same reasons and it says that God is not a liar so the inspired Word of God does not lie. What is written will happen.

This is the RT doctrine and has nothing to do with predestination as presented in scripture. God causes His prophecy to happen, not because of knowledge of future events, but because He creates the future day by day. The future does not exist as part of creation, it exists as a concept God brings about. He declares the end from the beginning, He says what He is going to cause to happen, and then He makes it happen.

 

[Tabatha2121]

Actually, I work full time, go to school full time (Master's program), and have a wife and brand new baby daughter.

You have an interesting profile for someone with a wife and kids.

 

[depthdeception]

First we need to agree of the meaning of the word, foreknew.

Yes, but "agreement" is all you will be able to muster. Hopefully you realize by now that there is no "absolute" definition of this term...

Using todays dictionary, it includes the idea of knowing what will happen in the future.

Huh. That's not what my "today's dictionary" says foreknowledge means...

But when the term translated as foreknew is used in the New Testament, it means to know something beforehand.

Apparently you still have not realized that just b/c the concept of "foreknowledge" means "x" to you that that does not necessarily mean that it means the same "x" in the NT. Once again, you are claiming that your interpretation of the text--as well as your presuppositions about how the word "foreknowledge" is used in the NT--is absolute. Notice above, you do not qualify your statement at all. Rather, your arrogantly assert that "foreknowledge means "x" in the NT." And how do we know this, one might ask? Your answer: "Because the NT uses the word which must necessarily mean "x"." Ah, the joys of tautologies...

So it is an acknowledgment of information or a plan acquired or formulated in the past and using it in the present, and has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge of the future. Instead what is being said is things are happening in the present based on plans or knowledge from the past.

So "when" in the "past" did God "plan" to do "x" that is occuring "now?" God is not contingently bound to time--therefore, there is no "past" in which God plans anything. I know this is quite difficult for you to grasp, but God is dynamically present in every moment, so much so that each moment that unfolds is replete with the creative energy and possibility of the eternal God, not a prescripted series of linear events that are simply unfolding that which has been planned beforehand.

 

[depthdeception]

You have an interesting profile for someone with a wife and kids.

Such as?

 

[Van]

Elect, my post was directed to you, DD has nothing but twaddle on his mind.

So "when" in the "past" did God "plan" to do "x" that is occuring "now?" God is not contingently bound to time--therefore, there is no "past" in which God plans anything. I know this is quite difficult for you to grasp, but God is dynamically present in every moment, so much so that each moment that unfolds is replete with the creative energy and possibility of the eternal God, not a prescripted series of linear events that are simply unfolding that which has been planned beforehand.

As you can see, DD has absolutely no clue as to what is being said.

 

[GenemZ]

This is the RT doctrine and has nothing to do with predestination as presented in scripture. God causes His prophecy to happen, not because of knowledge of future events, but because He creates the future day by day. The future does not exist as part of creation, it exists as a concept God brings about. He declares the end from the beginning, He says what He is going to cause to happen, and then He makes it happen.

God may make it snow today. But he did not make Mr. Jones curse the weather. Nor, did he make the kids down the block celebrate with joy on a snowy winter day. Nor, did he make Mr. Potter act like a kid before his wife and playfully throw her way a snow ball.

God controls the circumstances (Potter's wheel) but how we react (or respond) to the circumstances is left to our volition.

God may make the ice on the sidewalk. But he did not make Mr. Swatzik sue the store who owns the sidewalk when he fell. Nor, did God make Mrs. Gendilic not sue when she fell, as well. God controls the circumstances. Men decide in the hearts what they think of them.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Van]

Hi Genez, I think you are saying you agree with me. Thanks.

God knows, or can know, our hearts. Thus, given a situation, God knows how we will respond. Thus He can say if these guys had seen those miracles, they would have repented. God has granted us a purview within which we can exercise autonomous decisions which shape future events.

 

[depthdeception]

Elect, my post was directed to you, DD has nothing but twaddle on his mind.
As you can see, DD has absolutely no clue as to what is being said.

Twaddle which you, apparently, are unable to refute with sound thinking, and must therefore result to name calling.