Predestination and Foreknowledge

[Mark Corbett]

Most Christians sooner or later struggle with questions about predestination.

Many Christians don’t like the idea of predestination because it feels unfair. I think the problem is not with predestination itself, but with a lack of understanding about how predestination is related to foreknowledge. Once we understand what the Bible says about predestination and foreknowledge, it is easy to see how predestination is actually a good and encouraging truth which is entirely consistent with God’s justice, love, and even with our free will.

There are two Bible passages which explicitly link God’s foreknowledge with predestination. The first passage is Romans 8:29.

This passage shows us several things about predestination and foreknowledge:
1. The foreknowledge is knowledge related to people, as indicated by the phrase “those whom.”
2. This foreknowledge in some way logically precedes and leads to predestination.
3. The passage does NOT say that God predestines who will have faith.
4. The passage DOES say that God makes a destiny for us whom He foreknew, and that destiny is to become like Jesus.

The second passage which links foreknowledge and predestination is 1 Peter 1:1-2.

This passage shows us some truths similar to the truths we saw in Romans:

1. Being “elect” (which pretty much everyone agrees is the same thing as being chosen or predestined) is based on God’s foreknowledge. That’s what “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” means.
2. The passage does NOT say that God chooses who will have faith.
3. The passage does indicate that election has to do with both sanctification and forgiveness. Sanctification is the process where we become more and more like Jesus, so this is the same thing that Paul described in Romans 8:29 using the words “to be conformed to the image of His Son”.

What Specific Foreknowledge Leads to Predestination?

The Bible does not specifically tell us. We can’t say for sure. But I think it is possible that Paul and Peter were both referring to the fact that God knew ahead of time who, given the right opportunities and circumstances and help from Him, would freely accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

In other words, I don’t think the Bible is teaching that God predetermined who would have faith in Jesus. Rather, I think the Bible is teaching that God knew ahead of time who would have faith in Jesus. Then, based on that knowledge, God made a plan (a destiny, a predestination) for these people that their sins would be forgiven and they would be transformed to become like Jesus, and they would live in glory with God forever.

When you understand predestination in this way, you immediately realize that there is nothing unfair about it. In fact, you see that it is an amazing act of love. Even though we have faith in Jesus, we never could have saved ourselves. We never could have changed ourselves from being sinful people to being people who are like Jesus. But God makes sure this happens for everyone whom He knew would be willing to accept Him.

My destiny is not in doubt, and neither is yours, if you believe in Jesus. Predestination is wonderful! Thank God for predestination! God has chosen our destination, and it’s a really good one!

What Does This Have to Do With Calvinism and Arminianism?

You don’t have to understand the terms “Calvinism” and “Arminianism”. These terms are not in the Bible. However, since many Christians use these terms, you might want to know a little about them. These terms refer to two ways of understanding how predestination works. There’s more to Calvinism and Arminianism than predestination, but predestination is an important part of the issue.

The view I just shared above has a technical name: “conditional election.” This view, which represents my best effort to understand the Bible on this issue, is consistent with Arminianism. That doesn’t mean that I am committed to the full system of beliefs which are related to Arminianism, but it does mean that I lean toward an Arminian understanding of predestination.

Calvinists understand the Bible to teach “unconditional election.” They believe that God chose ahead of time who would have saving faith and who would not, and that God’s choice had nothing at all to do with anything He knew ahead of time about what each person would do or would be like.

Since I Lean Towards Arminianism, How Do I Feel About Calvinists?

I thank God for my brothers and sisters in Christ who are Calvinists. Although we disagree on some points of doctrine, we share a common faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are on the same team! I have been greatly blessed by the preaching, teaching, and writing ministries of men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem, both of whom are Calvinist. For me, learning from them is like eating a fish. You eat the meat and throw out the bones. In the case of these men, I have found them serving up huge amounts of delicious, nutritious fish meat which rarely contains more than a few small bones. They are advancing the work of God, and I thank God for them. I feel the same way about less famous Calvinists I know.

It’s fine to discuss issues like this, and they are not unimportant, but I hope Christians will not divide over issues like Arminianism vs. Calvinism. Sadly, some do. I am hoping we can have a discussion that will be peaceful, respectful, and helpful, even as we may strongly disagree on some issues. I also hope that those who are relatively new to this issue will feel free to share thoughts and questions so that the discussion is not dominated by a few of us who have already thought about this a lot.

Giving Thanks Together

Finally, all of us, Calvinists and Arminians alike, should thank God for His great grace, and specifically, that He made a plan for our salvation and uses His great wisdom and power to ensure that plan succeeds.


This OP is a modified version of a post on my blog.

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is what I told you. That no one can come unto me unless the Father has enabled him
John 6:65

 

[Mark Corbett]

This is what I told you. That no one can come unto me unless the Father has enabled him
John 6:65

I agree! I could not have come to the Father without his grace and love, which made it possible, which enabled me. Thank God for His grace and love and provision of salvation in Christ!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not only that but Rebekahs children had one and the same Father, our father Isaac.
Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad- in order that Gods purpose in election might stand, not by works but by him who calls-she was told: The older will serve the younger. Just as it is written: Jacob I loved but Esau I hated.
What then shall we say? Is God unjust?
Not at all! For he says to Moses:
I will have mercy on whom I have mercy
And I will have compassion on whom I have compassion
It does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort
But on Gods mercy
Rom9:10-16

 

[SkyWriting]

Most Christians sooner or later struggle with questions about predestination.

Many Christians don’t like the idea of predestination because it feels unfair. I think the problem is not with predestination itself, but with a lack of understanding about how predestination is related to foreknowledge. Once we understand what the Bible says about predestination and foreknowledge, it is easy to see how predestination is actually a good and encouraging truth which is entirely consistent with God’s justice, love, and even with our free will.

There are two Bible passages which explicitly link God’s foreknowledge with predestination. The first passage is Romans 8:29.

This passage shows us several things about predestination and foreknowledge:
1. The foreknowledge is knowledge related to people, as indicated by the phrase “those whom.”
2. This foreknowledge in some way logically precedes and leads to predestination.
3. The passage does NOT say that God predestines who will have faith.
4. The passage DOES say that God makes a destiny for us whom He foreknew, and that destiny is to become like Jesus.

The second passage which links foreknowledge and predestination is 1 Peter 1:1-2.

This passage shows us some truths similar to the truths we saw in Romans:

1. Being “elect” (which pretty much everyone agrees is the same thing as being chosen or predestined) is based on God’s foreknowledge. That’s what “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” means.
2. The passage does NOT say that God chooses who will have faith.
3. The passage does indicate that election has to do with both sanctification and forgiveness. Sanctification is the process where we become more and more like Jesus, so this is the same thing that Paul described in Romans 8:29 using the words “to be conformed to the image of His Son”.

What Specific Foreknowledge Leads to Predestination?

The Bible does not specifically tell us. We can’t say for sure. But I think it is possible that Paul and Peter were both referring to the fact that God knew ahead of time who, given the right opportunities and circumstances and help from Him, would freely accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

In other words, I don’t think the Bible is teaching that God predetermined who would have faith in Jesus. Rather, I think the Bible is teaching that God knew ahead of time who would have faith in Jesus. Then, based on that knowledge, God made a plan (a destiny, a predestination) for these people that their sins would be forgiven and they would be transformed to become like Jesus, and they would live in glory with God forever.

When you understand predestination in this way, you immediately realize that there is nothing unfair about it. In fact, you see that it is an amazing act of love. Even though we have faith in Jesus, we never could have saved ourselves. We never could have changed ourselves from being sinful people to being people who are like Jesus. But God makes sure this happens for everyone whom He knew would be willing to accept Him.

My destiny is not in doubt, and neither is yours, if you believe in Jesus. Predestination is wonderful! Thank God for predestination! God has chosen our destination, and it’s a really good one!

What Does This Have to Do With Calvinism and Arminianism?

You don’t have to understand the terms “Calvinism” and “Arminianism”. These terms are not in the Bible. However, since many Christians use these terms, you might want to know a little about them. These terms refer to two ways of understanding how predestination works. There’s more to Calvinism and Arminianism than predestination, but predestination is an important part of the issue.

The view I just shared above has a technical name: “conditional election.” This view, which represents my best effort to understand the Bible on this issue, is consistent with Arminianism. That doesn’t mean that I am committed to the full system of beliefs which are related to Arminianism, but it does mean that I lean toward an Arminian understanding of predestination.

Calvinists understand the Bible to teach “unconditional election.” They believe that God chose ahead of time who would have saving faith and who would not, and that God’s choice had nothing at all to do with anything He knew ahead of time about what each person would do or would be like.

Since I Lean Towards Arminianism, How Do I Feel About Calvinists?

I thank God for my brothers and sisters in Christ who are Calvinists. Although we disagree on some points of doctrine, we share a common faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are on the same team! I have been greatly blessed by the preaching, teaching, and writing ministries of men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem, both of whom are Calvinist. For me, learning from them is like eating a fish. You eat the meat and throw out the bones. In the case of these men, I have found them serving up huge amounts of delicious, nutritious fish meat which rarely contains more than a few small bones. They are advancing the work of God, and I thank God for them. I feel the same way about less famous Calvinists I know.

It’s fine to discuss issues like this, and they are not unimportant, but I hope Christians will not divide over issues like Arminianism vs. Calvinism. Sadly, some do. I am hoping we can have a discussion that will be peaceful, respectful, and helpful, even as we may strongly disagree on some issues. I also hope that those who are relatively new to this issue will feel free to share thoughts and questions so that the discussion is not dominated by a few of us who have already thought about this a lot.

Giving Thanks Together

Finally, all of us, Calvinists and Arminians alike, should thank God for His great grace, and specifically, that He made a plan for our salvation and uses His great wisdom and power to ensure that plan succeeds.


This OP is a modified version of a post on my blog.

God exists outside of time in both our past and our future.
There is no way for humans to grasp this, so we invented the "Predestined" idea
of God seeing into the future.......WhOOOOoooooooo

 

[Mark Corbett]

God exists outside of time in both our past and our future.

This MIGHT be true, but does the Bible actually teach this? If not, how do you know?

 

[Mark Corbett]

God exists outside of time in both our past and our future.
There is no way for humans to grasp this, so we invented the "Predestined" idea
of God seeing into the future.......WhOOOOoooooooo

Humans did not "invent" the idea of predestination. It is revealed by God to us through His Word, the Bible (see Romans 8:29, which is quoted and discussed in the OP). However, we have come up with different understandings of what is meant by predestination. These differences are what this thread is about.

 

[SkyWriting]

Humans did not "invent" the idea of predestination. It is revealed by God to us through His Word, the Bible (see Romans 8:29, which is quoted and discussed in the OP). However, we have come up with different understandings of what is meant by predestination. These differences are what this thread is about.

Ok It was invented by new testament writers becasue they
were looking for a way to reconcile contemporary with the
infinite. Of course nobody can reconcile the two, so there
are many attempted squirmings.

Man vs. God the infinite Alpha and Omega, is like the sound
of one grain of sand as it falls off one other grain,
compared with the Big Bang Theory.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Ok It was invented by new testament writers becasue they
were looking for a way to reconcile contemporary with the
infinite.

You are, of course, free to believe that the New Testament writers invented some of the ideas they wrote rather than believing, as I do, that everything they wrote was inspired by God and as such is entirely true.

But if you believe this, it doesn't make sense to me that you would even be interested in a thread which opens by discussing the interpretation of verses written by those New Testament authors.

If you want to argue against the reliability, inspiration, truthfulness, and/or authority of any part of God's Word, I humbly request that you do so on another thread in a more appropriate forum.

It is my desire to have a discussion here about the nature of predestination with people who share a belief that the Bible is entirely true, even if we don't agree in some places on how it should be interpreted.

 

[Halbhh]

Most Christians sooner or later struggle with questions about predestination.

Many Christians don’t like the idea of predestination because it feels unfair. I think the problem is not with predestination itself, but with a lack of understanding about how predestination is related to foreknowledge. Once we understand what the Bible says about predestination and foreknowledge, it is easy to see how predestination is actually a good and encouraging truth which is entirely consistent with God’s justice, love, and even with our free will.

There are two Bible passages which explicitly link God’s foreknowledge with predestination. The first passage is Romans 8:29.

This passage shows us several things about predestination and foreknowledge:
1. The foreknowledge is knowledge related to people, as indicated by the phrase “those whom.”
2. This foreknowledge in some way logically precedes and leads to predestination.
3. The passage does NOT say that God predestines who will have faith.
4. The passage DOES say that God makes a destiny for us whom He foreknew, and that destiny is to become like Jesus.

The second passage which links foreknowledge and predestination is 1 Peter 1:1-2.

This passage shows us some truths similar to the truths we saw in Romans:

1. Being “elect” (which pretty much everyone agrees is the same thing as being chosen or predestined) is based on God’s foreknowledge. That’s what “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” means.
2. The passage does NOT say that God chooses who will have faith.
3. The passage does indicate that election has to do with both sanctification and forgiveness. Sanctification is the process where we become more and more like Jesus, so this is the same thing that Paul described in Romans 8:29 using the words “to be conformed to the image of His Son”.

What Specific Foreknowledge Leads to Predestination?

The Bible does not specifically tell us. We can’t say for sure. But I think it is possible that Paul and Peter were both referring to the fact that God knew ahead of time who, given the right opportunities and circumstances and help from Him, would freely accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

In other words, I don’t think the Bible is teaching that God predetermined who would have faith in Jesus. Rather, I think the Bible is teaching that God knew ahead of time who would have faith in Jesus. Then, based on that knowledge, God made a plan (a destiny, a predestination) for these people that their sins would be forgiven and they would be transformed to become like Jesus, and they would live in glory with God forever.

When you understand predestination in this way, you immediately realize that there is nothing unfair about it. In fact, you see that it is an amazing act of love. Even though we have faith in Jesus, we never could have saved ourselves. We never could have changed ourselves from being sinful people to being people who are like Jesus. But God makes sure this happens for everyone whom He knew would be willing to accept Him.

My destiny is not in doubt, and neither is yours, if you believe in Jesus. Predestination is wonderful! Thank God for predestination! God has chosen our destination, and it’s a really good one!

What Does This Have to Do With Calvinism and Arminianism?

You don’t have to understand the terms “Calvinism” and “Arminianism”. These terms are not in the Bible. However, since many Christians use these terms, you might want to know a little about them. These terms refer to two ways of understanding how predestination works. There’s more to Calvinism and Arminianism than predestination, but predestination is an important part of the issue.

The view I just shared above has a technical name: “conditional election.” This view, which represents my best effort to understand the Bible on this issue, is consistent with Arminianism. That doesn’t mean that I am committed to the full system of beliefs which are related to Arminianism, but it does mean that I lean toward an Arminian understanding of predestination.

Calvinists understand the Bible to teach “unconditional election.” They believe that God chose ahead of time who would have saving faith and who would not, and that God’s choice had nothing at all to do with anything He knew ahead of time about what each person would do or would be like.

Since I Lean Towards Arminianism, How Do I Feel About Calvinists?

I thank God for my brothers and sisters in Christ who are Calvinists. Although we disagree on some points of doctrine, we share a common faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are on the same team! I have been greatly blessed by the preaching, teaching, and writing ministries of men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem, both of whom are Calvinist. For me, learning from them is like eating a fish. You eat the meat and throw out the bones. In the case of these men, I have found them serving up huge amounts of delicious, nutritious fish meat which rarely contains more than a few small bones. They are advancing the work of God, and I thank God for them. I feel the same way about less famous Calvinists I know.

It’s fine to discuss issues like this, and they are not unimportant, but I hope Christians will not divide over issues like Arminianism vs. Calvinism. Sadly, some do. I am hoping we can have a discussion that will be peaceful, respectful, and helpful, even as we may strongly disagree on some issues. I also hope that those who are relatively new to this issue will feel free to share thoughts and questions so that the discussion is not dominated by a few of us who have already thought about this a lot.

Giving Thanks Together

Finally, all of us, Calvinists and Arminians alike, should thank God for His great grace, and specifically, that He made a plan for our salvation and uses His great wisdom and power to ensure that plan succeeds.


This OP is a modified version of a post on my blog.

This topic is only academic for most of us.... but for some individuals not yet saved, it can sometimes be the case that a few are actually blocked even from seeking God because of an idea someone has said to them that seems profoundly unfair.

We should strive to help those so blocked.

There are so many pieces about what is foreknowledge and what is predestination that it is actually unlikely that people saying much about them have the same thing in mind, even if they pin down a key thing or three.

Like many, I read the text to mean that every human being was included in God's plan for humankind -- that a chance at salvation would be made available to us, through Christ, from the beginning. In scriptures we see we have real ability to choose also.
Salvation was made available to all, but not all the prodigals will return home.
The elect are those that have found out about Christ, but just as He told us, not every seed will bear fruit. Some seeds will fall on rocky ground, and not make it.

Foreknowledge is even more nuanced and complex than predestination I think, and my views on it include guesswork, because only some things are told to us. It's possible for instance that God, in His Design of us, intentionally made some part of us unpredictable, by His Design, for His purposes. We keep in mind we don't know every mystery (we are not omniscient, and don't know all things about God or His design, but instead certain key things only). If He did make us unpredictable, He can save us anyway. He can accomplish His plans regardless of any unpredictable choices we might make suddenly, because He is mighty and able. Of course, He has foreknowledge of His own plans, obviously, and He will accomplish them, therefore He knows the most crucial things and the most important things ahead of time in every variation of what foreknowledge may be. We can expect also that even if He made us to be unpredictable, He can nevertheless see the trend or direction we are heading in, and knows where that leads, ahead of time. Sort of like weather forecasting. But, it could be more complex than all of this. He might foresee (or envision or ... ) certain types of things, key things, and simply leave non key things to nature, which He may have made unpredictable by His design. (Physicists know that even with true randomness in quantum fluctuations, for example, that because of statistical averaging of large numbers of particles, macro stability arises. Randomness leads to ordered and stable systems.)

It's reasonable if you realize that God creating all things means God created physics to then conclude that since He created physics, it is very likely that physics works for a purpose.

It isn't just window dressing.

We could expect that physics works great because He made it. So, therefore, He does not have to control how a butterfly flies because He already has a perfect design to begin with. Therefore, it's most reasonable to expect He does not routinely control nature at all, but instead intervenes as needed to accomplish His plans, in the key things, but not in the non key things. This view sees God as in control of all things, even while He leaves all sorts of things to His perfect design to work without need of His intervention.

All of this is only useful to point out for a few individuals how it can be consistent to scripture (when read in full contexts without isolating verses away from poetic psalms or other metaphorical or hyperbolic passages and such), that God's way is totally fair even by their own viewpoint of what fairness is, in how God allows us real freedom and offers salvation, without dooming anyone ahead of time.

Also, there are probably a dozen or more equally interesting possible ways it could all work, and we should not imagine it has to be either theory A or theory B, one or the other, because of how there are many other additional ways it could all work that would fit scripture equally well. It's not A or B. It's A or B or C or D or E or F or G....etc.

 

[Mark Corbett]

This topic is only academic for most of us.... but for some individuals not yet saved, it can sometimes be the case that a few are actually blocked even from seeking God because of an idea someone has said to them that seems profoundly unfair.

We should strive to help those so blocked.

Yes, I agree that we should strive to help those who have been upset by hearing an interpretation of Scripture which make God appear to be "profoundly unfair", and even, I would add, to appear unloving. These distortions may block some people from being saved. Even for people who are saved, these distortions may interfere with their view of God as entirely good and loving. Our view of God deeply affects our hearts, our worship, and our faith. Since we are called to be transformed into His image, our view of God also affects the type of people we are becoming and how we relate to others. Our view of God is perhaps the most important thing about us.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes, I agree that we should strive to help those who have been upset by hearing an interpretation of Scripture which make God appear to be "profoundly unfair", and even, I would add, to appear unloving. These distortions may block some people from being saved. Even for people who are saved, these distortions may interfere with their view of God as entirely good and loving. Our view of God deeply affects our hearts, our worship, and our faith. Since we are called to be transformed into His image, our view of God also affects the type of people we are becoming and how we relate to others. Our view of God is perhaps the most important thing about us.

Great point! If you see any error in the remainder of my post above, would you be so kind as to mention the other view you think is better?

 

[Mark Corbett]

Foreknowledge is even more nuanced and complex than predestination I think, and my views on it include guesswork, because only some things are told to us. It's possible for instance that God, in His Design of us, intentionally made some part of us unpredictable, by His Design, for His purposes. We keep in mind we don't know every mystery (we are not omniscient, and don't know all things about God or His design, but instead certain key things only).

There's nothing in your post that jumps out at me as something I disagree with. I agree that any detailed view of "foreknowledge" involves a certain type of "guesswork". That doesn't mean we are merely guessing without any basis. What it means is that God does not reveal a lot of detail when it comes to how His foreknowledge works. So, we humbly and prayerfully study what He has revealed, and we cautiously seek to use reason and experience (as secondary sources, His Word always being primary) to understand what we can.

The view of foreknowledge and predestination I presented in the OP partly consists of things that are pretty clear in Scripture. For example, it is quite explicit that election is "according to" foreknowledge. But when it comes to the precise nature and content of that foreknowledge, it is less clear.

However, there are some views (some "guesses", but some treat them as crystal clear, rock hard "facts") that I cannot reconcile with my understanding of the Bible. Specifically, I cannot reconcile unconditional election as believed by Calvinists as being consistent with God's Word.

 

[SkyWriting]

You are, of course, free to believe that the New Testament writers invented some of the ideas they wrote rather than believing, as I do, that everything they wrote was inspired by God and as such is entirely true.

But if you believe this, it doesn't make sense to me that you would even be interested in a thread which opens by discussing the interpretation of verses written by those New Testament authors.

If you want to argue against the reliability, inspiration, truthfulness, and/or authority of any part of God's Word, I humbly request that you do so on another thread in a more appropriate forum.

It is my desire to have a discussion here about the nature of predestination with people who share a belief that the Bible is entirely true, even if we don't agree in some places on how it should be interpreted.

Scripture is written from differing viewpoints. Some of them entirely human. The reason predestination is wildly controversial is that it is impossible for humans to comprehend an intelligence that knows the future, yet fails to force the future to conform to our ideas of good and bad.

Here is an example of wrong teachings: 16 "If I called and He answered me, I could not believe that He was listening to my voice. 17 "For He bruises me with a tempest And multiplies my wounds without cause.


So we know the scriptures are true.
Now we know that God beats us up without cause?
Or
Are parts of scripture, in context, strictly from a flawed human perspective?

 

[paul1149]

I think it is possible that Paul and Peter were both referring to the fact that God knew ahead of time who, given the right opportunities and circumstances and help from Him, would freely accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Hi Mark. Very good job, once again. The above is quite a carefully nuanced and constructed statement.

I think the Bible is teaching that God knew ahead of time who would have faith in Jesus. Then, based on that knowledge, God made a plan (a destiny, a predestination) for these people ... When you understand predestination in this way, you immediately realize that there is nothing unfair about it. In fact, you see that it is an amazing act of love.

I think an understanding of predestination such as what you've presented affirms the loving and just nature of God, with consideration that it satisfies the image of Himself that He has placed within us, by which we can recognize Him. The harsher understanding of predestination is, in my view, a distortion of His loving and just character.

Have you given much thought to any possible differences between what you've presented and what is called "corporate predestination"? They may well be in effect the same thing, not sure. This is the way I've been framing it, and it seems Romans 9 is all on the corporate level.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Have you given much thought to any possible differences between what you've presented and what is called "corporate predestination"? They may well be in effect the same thing, not sure. This is the way I've been framing it, and it seems Romans 9 is all on the corporate level.

Actually, although I started this thread, this is still an area where I feel like I have a lot to learn. From my current understanding, I think that corporate election and conditional election can work together quite harmoniously. Some passages may be focused more the the corporate aspect, while others may be focused on an individual, but conditional aspect. But I don't think they need to conflict at all. Both corporate and conditional election hold that God chooses those who freely choose to have faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. Does this seem right to you?

 

[paul1149]

Both corporate and conditional election hold that God chooses those who freely choose to have faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. Does this seem right to you?

My understanding of this has been evolving at a rapid pace - which is only to say in a nice way that I was quite up in the air until not long ago, though I held tightly to the innate conviction that hard determinism simply is not consistent with "the Judge of the whole earth [doing] what is right".

I think the two ways of looking at predestination are indeed very close, and my own discernment is not adequate to come to any conclusions at this time. I could live with either one of them. AIUI, the corporate version says that God predestined a nation of kings and priests to reign with His Son, and He wants every person to be in it.

Exegetically, the problem I find is there is no way (that I know of), in either Greek or English, to look more deeply into the grammatical number of the pronouns in the various passages. Every time I've encountered predestination, its associated pronouns have been in the plural. But are they speaking of each individual in the plural group (of the Chosen), or of the plural group itself?

With no answer there, the path forwards lies in the hermeneutic of context, including the broader context of Scripture, and in reasoning. I hope I can be more definite in the future.

 

[Mark Corbett]

In the opening post I focus on two passages which directly discuss predestination and foreknowledge. However, I also believe that conditional election is a much better fit with passages which do not directly address predestination and foreknowledge, but which do explicitly state that God desires all to be saved. An example is this passage:

NIV 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Here is an example of wrong teachings: 16 "If I called and He answered me, I could not believe that He was listening to my voice. 17 "For He bruises me with a tempest And multiplies my wounds without cause.

So we know the scriptures are true.
Now we know that God beats us up without cause?
Or
Are parts of scripture, in context, strictly from a flawed human perspective?

The Bible is not teaching that God beats us up without cause. The Bible is reporting what Job said. The Bible does not teach that everything Job said is true. This is not really hard to understand.

 

[SkyWriting]

The Bible is not teaching that God beats us up without cause. The Bible is reporting what Job said. The Bible does not teach that everything Job said is true. This is not really hard to understand.

And the letters to the churches are reporting advise they were given.
It's not hard to figure out that the letters are not to you.
When paul says women should not speak in church, we don't take him seriously.