Predestination and Election

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
B. The sheep
1. John 10:1-5 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." ​

Why did you skip verse 9? Does it conflict your position?

Yes. If ANYONE enters, he BECOMES Christ's sheep.

Quote:
2. John 10:10-11 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. ​

Who are "the sheep"? Believers. God is the Savior of the world, above-all believers.

Quote:
3. John 10:26-29 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.​

Deny this, with Scriptural citation: men are Jesus' sheep, THROUGH their belief, not before.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:[
C. The chosen
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. ​

This spoken to the 12 Disciples. Jesus "chose ALL TWELVE". Jn6:70 Did you forget ONE of them became UNCHOSEN?

Quote:
2. Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
3. Numbers 16:1-13
4. Matthew 22:1-14
5. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;​

We just discussed Matt22:2-14; the KING ("God"!) chose NO one --- they chose themselves. The only people who were not "chosen", were:
1. The man who chose business
2. The man who chose farming
3. The man who chose filthy clothes

Quote:
D. As many as were ordained
1. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. ​

Not this verse again. Sorry to be frustrated, but no matter how many times a verse is exposed to NOT be indicating "sovereign predestination", it keeps showing up as if it was never discussed. (1Cor2:14 for example!)

I've posted Robertson's treatise of Acts13:48, so I won't post it again; except just to quote "Luke did not assert an absolute decree of salvation, but rather the Gentiles RANGED THEMSELVES on God's side".

And that's the only perspective that also accommodates verse both 46 and 48 --- if the JEWS can unappoint themselves, then it's not GOD who appointed the Gentiles.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.​

No, "adding those who were BEING saved".

Quote:
E. Whom the Lord wills
1. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of he will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ​

If the "begotenness" is all of God (vs13), and if "becoming begotten is by believing/receiving Jesus", then will you accept that it's MAN'S decision who will, and not God's?

Quote:
John6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day. ​

How long will you deny that "ALL MEN are helkuo-dragged to Jesus"? Jn12:32

Quote:
3. John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.​

Did you miss verse 18? Once again, Jesus is asserting His AUTHORITY.

"Give-life-to-whom-He-will", does not conflict "He-will-give-life-to-whomever-believes".

Quote:
III. When did God choose us?
A. From the beginning -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2. Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,​

You missed the very words you cited --- "chosen from the beginning, THROUGH FAITH".

 

[Ben johnson]

There has just been done some pretty thorough refutation of the opening post. Every point asserted, turned.

Let's discuss a passage that's on "election" but 100% opposed to "predestination".

"Applying diligence, supply in your faith moral excellence, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, kindness and brotherly love. He who LACKS these qualities is blind/short-sighted/FORGOTTEN former purification from sins. THEREFORE, brethren, be all the more diligent to make sure of your calling and election. As longas these frits are yours, ...the gates of Heaven will BE ...provided to you." 2Pet1:5-10

First, a man is held out as an example, who WAS saved but fell.

Second, by saying "THEREORE", Peter is saying "Don't BE like him"!

Third, our OWN diligence is required about our calling AND election.

Can that fit "predestined election"? Ever?

No.

 

[moonbeam]

The Glorious and Unbreakable Promise of God to His Sheep in Jude 24-25 .... Hallelujah

KJV

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever.



Amplified Bible

Now to Him Who is able to keep you without stumbling or slipping or falling, and to present [you] unblemished (blameless and faultless) before the presence of His glory in triumphant joy and exultation [with unspeakable, ecstatic delight]-- To the one only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory (splendor), majesty, might and dominion, and power and authority, before all time and now and forever (unto all the ages of eternity). Amen (so be it).

 

[Ben johnson]

And Jude 20-21 says "building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ to eternal life".

In 2Tim1:14-16, God guards what we entrust, and we guard what God entrusts.

"Guard, by the Holy Spirit who indwells you, the treasure entrusted to you."

Exactly what is it that we guard by the Spirit's power? The only thing Paul could mean, is "eternal life".

So the only question that reamains is, with respect, "Do we accept what Scripture says, or do we ignore many verses?"

 

[moonbeam]

The scripture warns us of bleating WOLVES who have entered the flock Jude 16-21..and the remedy against them.

KJV

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be thy who seperate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[beloved57]

If Jesus chose and ordained (predestined) all twelve, what happened to Judas?

Are you suggesting Jesus lost one ? If so, then you contradict jesus own words..

jn 18:

9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none

 

[yashualover]

Here is a common verse that Arminians use to counter attack predestination.

2Pe 3:9 TheG3588 LordG2962 is not slackG1019 G3756 concerning his promise,G1860 asG5613 some menG5100 countG2233 slackness;G1022 butG235 is longsufferingG3114 toG1519 us-ward,G2248 notG3361 willingG1014 that anyG5100 should perish,G622 butG235 that allG3956 should comeG5562 toG1519 repentance.G3341
But if one really wants to know the truth and goes into the greek he will find that the verse defends predestination.

Lets take the word "that any" G5100

The proper translation is certain ones.

G5100
τὶς
tìs; neut. ti, gen. tinós; enclitic indef. pron. One, someone, a certain one.
(I) Particularly and generally of some person or thing whom one cannot or does not wish to name or specify particularly. It is used in various constructions:
(A) Simply (Mat_12:29, Mat_12:47; Mat_20:20; Mar_8:4; Luk_8:49; Luk_9:57; Luk_13:6; Joh_2:25; Act_5:25, Act_5:34). Pl. tinés (Mar_14:4; Luk_13:1; Luk_24:1; Joh_13:29; Rom_3:3; 1Co_4:18; 1Co_15:12; 1Ti_6:10, 1Ti_6:21; Heb_4:6). Distributively, tis . . . héteros (G2087), another, followed by dé (G1161), a continuative particle, meaning one . . . and another (1Co_3:4); in the pl. tinés . . . tinés dé meaning some . . . and others (Luk_9:7-8; Php_1:15).
(B) Joined with a subst. or adj. taken substantively, a certain person or thing, someone or something. After a subst. (Mar_5:25; Luk_8:27; Luk_9:19; Luk_10:31, Luk_10:38; Joh_6:7; Act_5:1; Act_27:39); pl. (Luk_8:2; Luk_24:22; Act_9:19; Act_17:20; 2Pe_3:16). Also before the subst. or adj. (Mat_18:12; Luk_17:12; Joh_4:46; Act_3:2; Act_9:36; Gal_6:1). Pl. (Luk_13:31; Act_13:1; Act_15:2; Act_27:1; Jud_1:4). Preceded by heís (G1520), one, meaning someone (Mar_14:51). Joined with names, meaning one by the name of (Mar_15:21; Act_9:43). By apposition after a name (Luk_10:33); before a name (Joh_11:1)

 

[yashualover]

And Jude 20-21 says "building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ to eternal life".

In 2Tim1:14-16, God guards what we entrust, and we guard what God entrusts.

"Guard, by the Holy Spirit who indwells you, the treasure entrusted to you."

Exactly what is it that we guard by the Spirit's power? The only thing Paul could mean, is "eternal life".

So the only question that reamains is, with respect, "Do we accept what Scripture says, or do we ignore many verses?"

Php 2:12 And so, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I am absent, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.

 

[yashualover]

Quote:[
C. The chosen
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
​

This spoken to the 12 Disciples. Jesus "chose ALL TWELVE". Jn6:70 Did you forget ONE of them became UNCHOSEN?

Quote:
2. Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
3. Numbers 16:1-13
4. Matthew 22:1-14
5. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
​

We just discussed Matt22:2-14; the KING ("God"!) chose NO one --- they chose themselves. The only people who were not "chosen", were:
1. The man who chose business
2. The man who chose farming
<B>3. The man who chose filthy clothes

Quote:
​

</B>

D. As many as were ordained
1. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
​

Not this verse again. Sorry to be frustrated, but no matter how many times a verse is exposed to NOT be indicating "sovereign predestination", it keeps showing up as if it was never discussed. (1Cor2:14 for example!)

I've posted Robertson's treatise of Acts13:48, so I won't post it again; except just to quote "Luke did not assert an absolute decree of salvation, but rather the Gentiles RANGED THEMSELVES on God's side".

And that's the only perspective that also accommodates verse both 46 and 48 --- if the JEWS can unappoint themselves, then it's not GOD who appointed the Gentiles.

Judas was chosen as the son of perdition, this was preplanned before the earth was created.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them by your name that you gave me. I guarded them, and not one of them became lost except the one who was destined for destruction, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[chestertonrules]

Judas was chosen as the son of perdition, this was preplanned before the earth was created.

Joh 17:12While I was with them, I protected them by your name that you gave me. I guarded them, and not one of them became lost except the one who was destined for destruction, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Destined, or predestined.

Here is what he was chosen for according to Jesus:

C. The chosen
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

 

[MamaZ]

Destined, or predestined.

Here is what he was chosen for according to Jesus:

C. The chosen
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Not Judas chester

 

[JimfromOhio]

Judas was chosen to betrayed Christ so Christ can die on the Cross.

 

[moonbeam]

Judas was chosen as the son of perdition, this was preplanned before the earth was created.

Joh 17:12While I was with them, I protected them by your name that you gave me. I guarded them, and not one of them became lost except the one who was destined for destruction, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Amen...that is a revealed FACT of scripture in Joh 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47639912#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=47639912#_ftnref1

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
The scripture warns us of bleating WOLVES who have entered the flock Jude 16-21..and the remedy against them.​

Yes --- and Acts20:29-30 speaks of "savage wolves not sparing the flock, ...drawing away disciples..."

Could "flock" and "disciples" be speaking of "saved"?

Quote:
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be thy who seperate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.​

Hmmmm --- that sounds like another "warning against deceivers" passage, doesn't it?

"Save others, snatching them out of the fire". Jd23

Save, snatch-from-fire; does that sound like "sovereign predestination", or "we-can-affect-people"?

BTW, posts that have lots of Scripture citations, have more credibility...

 

[beloved57]

Here is what he was chosen for according to Jesus:

So what Jesus said negative about judas means nothing to you.. and you claim to love and follow jesus of the bible..

Jn 18:

9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quote:
Not Judas chester​

Have you erased Jn6:70 from your copy, "MamaZ"?

Jesus chose all twelve, and ordained all of them to bear fruit.

Find a way to deny that...

 

[MamaZ]

Quote:
Not Judas chester
​

Have you erased Jn6:70 from your copy, "MamaZ"?

Jesus chose all twelve, and ordained all of them to bear fruit.

Find a way to deny that...

Which they did.. Those unto salvation the fruits of Christ and Judas who was chosen as scripture says the son of perdition. Both bearing the fruit for which they were chosen..

 

[Ben johnson]

So what Jesus said negative about judas means nothing to you.. and you claim to love and follow jesus of the bible..

Jn 18:

9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. ​

If this is right, that Judas was never saved, then how do you explain Jn6:70? Did He choose all 12, or not?

Judas was chosen to betray Christ so Christ can die on the Cross.​

Jesus wouldn't have been crucified without Judas?

You all are ignoring the rest of the cited verses. Do you find two or three verses you perceive support "predestination", and ignore (erase) the rest?

Look at how many posts I made yesterdaY --- and no one is actually answering.

We can't just throw a verse out that we think supports our position, without answeing all the other verses that do not.