Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

[keras]

You can hang around and undergo trials if that's your bag. I prefer to accept what is offered:

You will accept it; you will have no choice.
But the outcome for those who stand firm in their faith for God's protection, they will experience amazing blessings in the Christian nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

BaB, your cut and paste of scriptures and the interminable videos, are just a waste of space.
Try actually writing something for a change and people may interact with you in a sensible and normal way.

 

[BABerean2]

BaB, your cut and paste of scriptures and the interminable videos, are just a waste of space.
Try actually writing something for a change and people may interact with you in a sensible and normal way.

Do you want me to write something about a Thermite reaction on the moon, and satellites falling to the earth, after a CME?

I still love you, Keras.

.

 

[iamlamad]

Thank you for sharing the link to your study refuting the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View. Some Pre-Tribbers use the argument that the church is not found during the Tribulation; but the bible clearly states that there are saints (Grk. "hagiazo") during the Tribulation Period.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came OUT OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9,14)"

They are not kept OUT of the Great Tribulation, but rather they are kept FROM the Wrath of God which is poured out during the Great Tribulation (cf. Rev. 7:1-8; 9:4). Those with the "seal of God in their foreheads" will be protected during the Tribulation from the judgments which are poured out upon the unbelieving world. The words "keep from" (tereo ek) in the Greek mentioned in Revelation 3:10 implies protection "from" and not "out of" -- and this is used elsewhere in Scripture to prove this point.

I think that most Pre-Tribber's shouldn't be so concerned about this so much as that they should just live a life worthy unto the Lord. To be faithful to stay on the straight and narrow, and to not deviate to the right or to the left. In doing so . . . they will not be caught "off-guard" regardless of when the timing of the Rapture will occur (cf. Matt. 24:42-44; 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Pet. 3:10; Rev. 16:15; 22:12).

God Bless!

Came out of......
Did you see the great crowd too large to number in chapter 7? I sure you must have, since you wrote of it.

I wonder if you can show us in Revelation where "the trib" or the 70th week begins in relation to chapter 7 where this great crowd is seen.

Next, please point out to us all where the days of great tribulation are found in Revelation.

Which "great tribulation" was John referring to in chapter 2:22?

Finally, show us all where you THINK the rapture is in Revelation.

Then we will continue.

 

[iamlamad]

Yeah right that's why there are many mansions in His fathers house, cause He was teasing us.

You can hang around and undergo trials if that's your bag. I prefer to accept what is offered:

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I am choosing the escape clause!

 

[keras]

Do you want me to write something about a Thermite reaction on the moon, and satellites falling to the earth, after a CME?

I still love you, Keras. .

No; you don't need to write about that, because it is what is prophesied to happen and I have told you about it.
There is no other way for the Prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath to be literally fulfilled. Simple really, but you and all the deniers reject it, to your discredit and great surprise when that Day comes.
Your problem is confusing the Lord's Day of wrath with the Great Day of Almighty God. Two Days: 7+ years apart
At least you have been told and when it all does happen, you will know what to do; Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

As for a 'rapture to heaven', that fanciful notion fits the category of fairy tales and fables, just as Paul said people would believe in the end times. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Neogaia777]

No; you don't need to write about that, because it is what is prophesied to happen and I have told you about it.
There is no other way for the Prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath to be literally fulfilled. Simple really, but you and all the deniers reject it, to your discredit and great surprise when that Day comes.
Your problem is confusing the Lord's Day of wrath with the Great Day of Almighty God. Two Days: 7+ years apart
At least you have been told and when it all does happen, you will know what to do; Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

As for a 'rapture to heaven', that fanciful notion fits the category of fairy tales and fables, just as Paul said people would believe in the end times. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Am I to understand that you will not think God will come and do something with some of us, before, at least the Final Great War and Battle of Armageddon, that will involve Israel and the middle east...? And then come back with us later...? Or what...?

Or if it perhaps happens "before" the Final grand climatic Battle of Armageddon, returning with us, or some of us, at that time, to do maybe do battle or anything or something...? Or does it happen at or right before Armageddon...?

Or do you even believe it or anything like that (a rapture of some kind) at all, or what...? So, nothing happens at all...? Or we all stay here and or are just all killed for our faith or something ...? Or we all have to die first, then Christ or God returns or does something or something...? And what happens then, or after that, or at that time...? Or what...?

God Bless!

 

[Calminian]

Hello, ItIsFinished,

When I said that the saints are protected; I meant that they are protected from God's Divine judgment during the Tribulation -- and NOT from the persecution of the Antichrist. I also cited many bible passages in their context which clearly refutes that there are two distinct events. You can see the parallel between the biblical passages I cited. But I have yet to see any of the biblical passages I cited refuted in any such way; nor any biblical texts which prove your position. I see your interpretations -- but no bible verses to prove that these are two distinct events. These seem to be clearly be ignored by Pre-Tribbers. This is the reason why I cited those bible passages in particular; so those who hold to the Pre-Trib view can understand those passages in its "context" -- and how it clearly goes against their Pre-Trib teaching.

God Bless!

I don't think you made your case at all, in the OP, or in this post. Claiming you did, doesn't change anything.

What i find compelling is the fact that the Church is mentioned many times in the first 3 chapters of revelation in the present, but mystically absent during the future tribulation.

 

[keras]

Am I to understand that you will not think God will come and do something with some of us, before, at least the Final Great War and Battle of Armageddon, that will involve Israel and the middle east...? And then come back with us later...? Or what...?

Or if it perhaps happens "before" the Final grand climatic Battle of Armageddon, returning with us, or some of us, at that time, to do maybe do battle or anything or something...? Or does it happen at or right before Armageddon...?

Or do you even believe it or anything like that (a rapture of some kind) at all, or what...? So, nothing happens at all...? Or we all stay here and or are just all killed for our faith or something ...? Or we all have to die first, then Christ or God returns or does something or something...? And what happens then, or after that, or at that time...? Or what...?

God Bless!

Phew!!!! That's about as confused and a lack of Bible prophetic knowledge, as I've seen on the forums. The average Church member is totally ignorant, of course.

Revelation, the Book dictated to John by Jesus, does give a proper sequence of the end times events. With some asides of more details.
We are given an overview from God's perspective of 7 types of Church's. Note that each one has some Overcomers in them. The true, faithful people of God; His Israelites by faith. Proved by Galatians 3:26-29& 6:14-16
Jesus is the Seed, the real Israel and we, His Christian followers are the inheritors of all the promises of God to Israel. Romans 8:16-18

Jesus opens the Seals, 1 to 5 and we have experienced all the wars, famines and plagues possible, without wiping humankind out completely. The 5th Seal proves it is open, by all the martyrs since Stephen.
But as the cosmic events described in the Sixth Seal, have not occurred yet, then this will be the next prophesied event. Proved by how Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61, in the second verse, before: and a day of the vengeance of our Lord.

This world changing disaster, triggered by an attack onto Israel by the Islamic peoples, will set the stage for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
All well described in Revelation and throughout the Bible, leading up to the 1000 year reign of King Jesus and then the final Judgement of everyone.
Those found worthy will receive immortality, but the outcome for those whose names are not found in the Book of Life, is annihilation.
Ref: logostelos.info

 

[Neogaia777]

Phew!!!! That's about as confused and a lack of Bible prophetic knowledge, as I've seen on the forums. The average Church member is totally ignorant, of course.

Revelation, the Book dictated to John by Jesus, does give a proper sequence of the end times events. With some asides of more details.
We are given an overview from God's perspective of 7 types of Church's. Note that each one has some Overcomers in them. The true, faithful people of God; His Israelites by faith. Proved by Galatians 3:26-29& 6:14-16
Jesus is the Seed, the real Israel and we, His Christian followers are the inheritors of all the promises of God to Israel. Romans 8:16-18

Jesus opens the Seals, 1 to 5 and we have experienced all the wars, famines and plagues possible, without wiping humankind out completely. The 5th Seal proves it is open, by all the martyrs since Stephen.
But as the cosmic events described in the Sixth Seal, have not occurred yet, then this will be the next prophesied event. Proved by how Jesus stopped His quote of Isaiah 61, in the second verse, before: and a day of the vengeance of our Lord.

This world changing disaster, triggered by an attack onto Israel by the Islamic peoples, will set the stage for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
All well described in Revelation and throughout the Bible, leading up to the 1000 year reign of King Jesus and then the final Judgement of everyone.
Those found worthy will receive immortality, but the outcome for those whose names are not found in the Book of Life, is annihilation.
Ref: logostelos.info

Well, forgive my supposed, confused "ignorance", but, are you saying God's people or the church will not ever be raptured in any kind of way, or taken out of the world in or at any time and then to return, or what...? Yes or No...?

God Bless!

 

[keras]

Well, forgive my supposed, confused "ignorance", but, are you saying God's people or the church will not ever be raptured in any kind of way, or taken out of the world in or at any time and then to return, or what...? Yes or No...?

God Bless!

Sorry for my lengthy reply, so much to explain!
NO. There is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church at anytime. Only the 2 Witnesses are taken to heaven and they get killed first. Rev 11
We Christians have work to do here, there is nowhere the Bible says we leave the earth. Jesus Returns with His angel army. Matthew 16:27 & Matthew 25:31

 

[Neogaia777]

Sorry for my lengthy reply, so much to explain!
NO. There is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church at anytime. Only the 2 Witnesses are taken to heaven and they get killed first. Rev 11
We Christians have work to do here, there is nowhere the Bible says we leave the earth. Jesus Returns with His angel army. Matthew 16:27 & Matthew 25:31

Well, thank you for your opinion, but I think I might like to hear what some others have to say on it also here first, before I make any "for sure determination", no offense...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

You guys are not being very clear in some of your arguments thus far...?

God Bless!

 

[BABerean2]

No; you don't need to write about that, because it is what is prophesied to happen and I have told you about it.
There is no other way for the Prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath to be literally fulfilled. Simple really, but you and all the deniers reject it, to your discredit and great surprise when that Day comes.
Your problem is confusing the Lord's Day of wrath with the Great Day of Almighty God. Two Days: 7+ years apart
At least you have been told and when it all does happen, you will know what to do; Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

As for a 'rapture to heaven', that fanciful notion fits the category of fairy tales and fables, just as Paul said people would believe in the end times. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Since a Thermite reaction requires pure Aluminum, which is not found on the moon, anyone who says such things would be better off not using the words "fairy tales" and "fables".

Since there is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible, it would fall under the same category as the lunar Thermite reaction.

Have you learned anything new during your time on this forum?

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Well, forgive my supposed, confused "ignorance", but, are you saying God's people or the church will not ever be raptured in any kind of way, or taken out of the world in or at any time and then to return, or what...? Yes or No...?

God Bless!

The following was produced by former pretrib believer Steven Straub.
It gives the Bible version of the rapture event.

.

 

[keras]

Since a Thermite reaction requires pure Aluminum, which is not found on the moon, anyone who says such things would be better off not using the words "fairy tales" and "fables".

A thermite reaction requires Aluminum, Oxygen, Hydrogen and extreme heat. The Hydrogen will come from the sun, as superheated plasma, the Al and O are the main constituent of moon dust as Aluminum Oxide.
The result is pure Al and H20.
It will happen, BaB, despite your protestations!

Since there is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible, it would fall under the same category as the lunar Thermite reaction.

No; the 7 year period is not all the Great Tribulation. Only the last half of 3 1/2 years will be.
Be good for you to be sure of what others believe before making false accusations.

Have you learned anything new during your time on this forum?

Yes, I am continually learning, but I never change my core beliefs of what God has planned for His people.
I have been posting on eschatology forums for about 10 years.
It has been confirmed to me many times, that anyone who holds to a false belief will be fixed into it by the Lord. As Isaiah 29:0-12 and 2 Thess 2:11 tell us.

But I keep on presenting the truths of the Prophetic Word, as I know I have helped many to a better understanding of what God has planned for our future.

 

[BABerean2]

A thermite reaction requires Aluminum, Oxygen, Hydrogen and extreme heat. The Hydrogen will come from the sun, as superheated plasma, the Al and O are the main constituent of moon dust as Aluminum Oxide.
The result is pure Al and H20.
It will happen, BaB, despite your protestations!

Keras,

A Thermite reaction uses pure Aluminum and Iron Oxide.
When initiated it produces an extremely exothermic reaction.

At one time it was used to melt pieces of railroad iron together.

I was once consulted by a local welder who wanted to use the reaction in his welding shop.

Chemical reactions are not subject to our wishful thinking.

2Al + Fe2O3 -----> Al2O3 + 2Fe

The above is the balanced chemical reaction.
The Law of Conservation of Matter says we must have the same number of atoms on both sides of the reaction.

Chemistry was part of the curriculum when I taught science.
I also took several chemistry classes during my college training.

You better go back and look at your Chemistry book again...

.

 

[Dale]

Not all trumps are the same. There is president Trump. There is a trump card in bridge. Trump can also be a verb. There is a trumpet of judgment in Revelation in a series of trumpet blasts. The last trump Paul mentions is a trumpet of deliverance of a catching up of believers. In the Olivet discourse before the breaking of the sixth seal (and before any of the trumpet blasts), believers are told to look up for their redemption draws near. Why would the Lord tell them to look up and say that there redemption draws near? This is clearly the middle of the Tribulation some time after the antichrist takes control of the Jewish temple.

You also have to think that Paul's readers would have no knowledge of any last trump in the book of Revelation, either. So Paul was obviously referring to something that his readers would already know about.

You are doing an amazing job of ignoring the clear meaning of the passage in I Corinthians 15. Apparently you believe that when Paul says that death will be "swallowed up" this means that it will be "swallowed up" for some but not others, and even that death will be "swallowed up" for some Christians but not for others. Those who are Christians before the Rapture will be beyond death but they are in heaven where no one would expect to see death anyway. Those who become Christians after the Rapture are still subject to death, just as people always have been. We seem to have two-tiered salvation, at least between the Rapture and the Second Coming.


Does it occur to you that when Paul says that death is "swallowed up" he means that it is if the earth opened and death personified is dropped straight into the abyss? That's pretty final. This isn't the first place in the Bible where we are told about death being "swallowed up." Isaiah tells us that God will destroy death on "this mountain," which means Mount Zion. The destruction of death isn't something that happens when we get to the afterlife but something Jesus will do here on earth. It is obvious that this is the same event that Paul is talking about. It can't happen twice, it will happen at the Second Coming, when Christ returns to earth in the body, and stands on the ground. The same passage says that God will "wipe away" all tears, in language very similar to the end of Revelation. Again, this can't happen until the time of the Second Coming.


On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.
--Isaiah 25:6-8 NIV

 

[keras]

You better go back and look at your Chemistry book again...

This is a useless argument.
One thing we can be sure of is that when the sun explodes out a massive CME, things will never be the same again on earth.

I will clarify this; Isaiah 30:26 says the sun will explode with a very bright flash and this will be reflected by the moon; shining as brightly as the sun.
Then; Joel 2:31 and Revelation 6:12 both say that the sun will turn black and the moon will look blood red. This is explained by the CME mass, a multi billion ton cloud of superheated hydrogen, obscuring the sun from us. When this mass strikes the moon, it will glow red.
Simple, and what is plainly stated to happen.

 

[Dale]

Not all trumps are the same. There is president Trump. There is a trump card in bridge. Trump can also be a verb. There is a trumpet of judgment in Revelation in a series of trumpet blasts. The last trump Paul mentions is a trumpet of deliverance of a catching up of believers. In the Olivet discourse before the breaking of the sixth seal (and before any of the trumpet blasts), believers are told to look up for their redemption draws near. Why would the Lord tell them to look up and say that there redemption draws near? This is clearly the middle of the Tribulation some time after the antichrist takes control of the Jewish temple.

You also have to think that Paul's readers would have no knowledge of any last trump in the book of Revelation, either. So Paul was obviously referring to something that his readers would already know about.

Jason, I notice that you refer to the opening of the sixth seal in the Olivet discourse. There is no mention of seals in any of the Olivet discourse passages in Matthew, Mark or Luke. You are clearly lifting something from Revelation and inserting it into apocalyptic passages in the Gospels. If there is any validity to this, you have to establish it, not assume it.


This is something I've noticed about Dispensationalists. They jump around the Bible like a flea jumping around on a newspaper, grabbing a few words here and linking them up with a few words from somewhere else. It is a formula for taking everything out of context.

 

[Neogaia777]

It doesn't really matter to me, I plan on being always ready no matter what and enduring till the end, no matter what... It would be really cool if I was wisked away in some kind of rapture kind of thing, but if not, I plan on enduring till the end anyway, or till I do finally meet Christ anyway, whether if that means going up/off in a rapture, or dying for my faith here, or enduring the great tribulation here, or whatever, not really that important to me...

I plan on "keeping on keeping on" anyway and regardless, and being ready for his return "at any time" anyway, cause that's kind of how I live my life anyway, and I don't plan on changing (it/that) so...

Might be cool to know for sure, but it's certainly not vital by any means...

I still place my hope and faith and trust in Him regardless, and hold out for the hope of seeing Him and meeting Him one day, however that has to happen or whatever form or shape or way it or that has to take or whatever, regardless...

God Bless!