Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

[Biblewriter]

That does not agree with what Jesus said in John 5:27-30.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

.

The error of this claim has been repeatedly pointed out. The Greek word here translated "hour" is "ora," normally spelled "hora," because it is pronounced that way. In the KJV, This Greek word is translated "time" 11 times, "season" 3 times, and 5 other ways beside the times when it is translated "hour."

 

[jgr]

The error of this claim has been repeatedly pointed out. The Greek word here translated "hour" is "ora," normally spelled "hora," because it is pronounced that way. In the KJV, This Greek word is translated "time" 11 times, "season" 3 times, and 5 other ways beside the times when it is translated "hour."

What error is that?

The passage does not refer to one hour or time applicable to the good, and a different hour or time applicable to the evil.

It refers to a single hour or time (“the hour”) which is applicable to “all”, both good and evil.

No error there.

 

[Choose Wisely]

There won't be a rapture till after the 7th trumpet announcement as to time to reward. Luke 14:14 place reward time as when the just get resurrected.
so - 7th trumpet sounds - announcement goes out...time to judge the dead -
reward
destroy

The 7th trumpet does not sound until Rev 10, and yet we have a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7. Where do they come from? And what are they doing in heaven in Rev 7 if the trumpet is not blown until Rev 10.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Any parables need to be looked at as to if they tell their timing.
Heaven and earth shall pass away - that day-not known

Matthew 25 is for when the Lord has sat on His throne of glory.
This is not a pre-trb nor mid-trib rapture scene.

Matthew 24 starts that timing...and it flows right into chapter 25 to the end of it.
It is about when heaven and earth shall pass away.

then shall the kingdom of heaven....
kingdom of God
inherit the kingdom of God
It is the time of the new earth kingdom.
Those in the lake of fire can see the just dining and gnash their teeth and weep.

repent -for the kingdom of heaven is at hand
then shall the kingdom

Matthew 13:24
-the kingdom of heaven

/wheat and tares
at the end of the world

Not logical. We see the tribulation period in Matt 24. Then we see the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 that occurs at the 6th seal. Do you want to leave all that out and just jump to the end when heaven and earth will pass away?

 

[BABerean2]

The error of this claim has been repeatedly pointed out. The Greek word here translated "hour" is "ora," normally spelled "hora," because it is pronounced that way. In the KJV, This Greek word is translated "time" 11 times, "season" 3 times, and 5 other ways beside the times when it is translated "hour."

OK.
Have it your way.
Throw out that word and see if it changes the meaning of the passage.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the ---- is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

.

 

[dad]

That does not agree with what Jesus said in John 5:27-30.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

.

The hour is coming, of course. That hour is not the Rapture, because only the saved are called. That hour is not before the 1000 years end, because dead are raised then. So it seems that this passage refers to that time. So?

 

[keras]

The 7th trumpet does not sound until Rev 10, and yet we have a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7. Where do they come from? And what are they doing in heaven in Rev 7 if the trumpet is not blown until Rev 10.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Placing the great multitude of Christians seen by John in Revelation 7:9-14, in heaven is purely an assumption. A wrong assumption, as that chapter is all about earthly happenings.
Plainly, those people are all the faithful Christians who will migrate to all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed that entire area.

You idea of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is never stated in the Bible. Our destiny is to be the people God always wanted in the holy Land. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where God's holy people are there when they are conquered by the Anti-Christ.

Revelation 7:15-17 is prophesying about the Eternal state, after the Millennium. As it will be then that God will wipe away every tear.... Revelation 21:4

 

[BABerean2]

The hour is coming, of course. That hour is not the Rapture, because only the saved are called. That hour is not before the 1000 years end, because dead are raised then. So it seems that this passage refers to that time. So?

The timing of that event is found below.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So, what are you going to do with it?

.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Placing the great multitude of Christians seen by John in Revelation 7:9-14, in heaven is purely an assumption. A wrong assumption, as that chapter is all about earthly happenings.

Right and how do the elders get around the throne if they are not in heaven.
Rev 7
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Plainly, those people are all the faithful Christians who will migrate to all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal event has cleared and cleansed that entire area.

So we have a great multitude in heaven and we can see that they are around the throne and you feel like it is better to just make something up instead of believe what the word says. Okay.

You idea of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, is never stated in the Bible. Our destiny is to be the people God always wanted in the holy Land. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where God's holy people are there when they are conquered by the Anti-Christ.

Yeah, where would I come up with the idea that anyone is raptured to heaven. I bet we see these imaginary people return to earth at the end of the wrath of God.
Rev 19
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 7:15-17 is prophesying about the Eternal state, after the Millennium. As it will be then that God will wipe away every tear.... Revelation 21:4

Yeah that's why they are before the throne of God, in His temple.
Rev 7
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

[Biblewriter]

OK.
Have it your way.
Throw out that word and see if it changes the meaning of the passage.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the ---- is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

.

The point is that another scripture explicitly states that the resurrections of those who have done good and those who have done evil are separated by a thousand years.

And this scripture does not, as you and jgr want to pretend, simply does not say that they happen at the same time.

 

[BABerean2]

The point is that another scripture explicitly states that the resurrections of those who have done good and those who have done evil are separated by a thousand years.

And this scripture does not, as you and jgr want to pretend, simply does not say that they happen at the same time.

Any unbiased reader would say they happen at the same time.

You are making the erroneous assumption that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.
Since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know your logic is in error.

Your interpretation of the book falls apart in the scripture found below.

If your interpretation is correct, all of these passages must be wrong.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(In the verse above we find the living "nations" and "wrath", and the "time of the judgment of the dead".)

.

 

[keras]

Right and how do the elders get around the throne if they are not in heaven.

Revelation 7:9 does not say where they are, but an earthly scene is set in verses 1-3 and there is no mention of heaven in that chapter, so you have made that up.
The Throne of God CAN be seen from the earth, if God wills it. Ezekiel 1:1 saw it as he was standing by the river Kebar. Stephen saws it as he was killed. Acts 7:56

Yeah, where would I come up with the idea that anyone is raptured to heaven. I bet we see these imaginary people return to earth at the end of the wrath of God.
Rev 19
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19:1-2 is clearly referring to the souls of the martyrs. They are allowed to call out at times. Revelation 6:9-11

Yeah that's why they are before the throne of God, in His temple.

I said that this happens after the Millennium. In Eternity, when God comes to dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

Your attitude, Choose Wisely, leaves much to be desired. You are scathing and derogatory against anyone who challenges your precious 'rapture to heaven' belief.
That childish fable is never prophesied to happen and your posts of unsupported opinion, do nothing to convince anyone of it.

 

[Biblewriter]

Any unbiased reader would say they happen at the same time.

You are making the erroneous assumption that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.
Since Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, we know your logic is in error.

Your interpretation of the book falls apart in the scripture found below.

If your interpretation is correct, all of these passages must be wrong.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(In the verse above we find the living "nations" and "wrath", and the "time of the judgment of the dead".)

.

I am well aware that the Revelation is not in chronological order. but Revelation EXPLICITLY says that there will be a thousand years between the two resurrections mentuined there.

And the judgment you are quoting is not even a judgment of the dead. It is a judgment of those still living when The wars immediately after the Lord's return are over.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Revelation 7:9 does not say where they are, but an earthly scene is set in verses 1-3 and there is no mention of heaven in that chapter, so you have made that up.
The Throne of God CAN be seen from the earth, if God wills it.

Ok, so if you see the throne of God you also can see the elders around the throne.

And if God wills it, a one eyed ant could destroy the earth.......but that doesn't mean it will happen.

Revelation 19:1-2 is clearly referring to the souls of the martyrs. They are allowed to call out at times.

I guess those soul are going to follow the King of Kings into battle without bodies.

Your attitude, Choose Wisely, leaves much to be desired. You are scathing and derogatory against anyone who challenges your precious 'rapture to heaven' belief.
That childish fable is never prophesied to happen and your posts of unsupported opinion, do nothing to convince anyone of it.

In other words you have a problem of anyone using scripture to prove you wrong.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[BABerean2]

And the judgment you are quoting is not even a judgment of the dead. It is a judgment of those still living when The wars immediately after the Lord's return are over.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


(GW) The nations were angry, but your anger has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged: to reward your servants, the prophets, your holy people, and those who fear your name, no matter if they are important or unimportant, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."


(LITV-TSP) And the nations were full of wrath; and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your slaves, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.

.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[dad]

The timing of that event is found below.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So, what are you going to do with it?

.

Since we know that it is when the 1000 years are finished that the dead are raised, we can deduce that those dead here that are raised, are...as it points out in the same verse..saints, prophets and servants!

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm