Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

[Biblewriter]

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


(GW) The nations were angry, but your anger has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged: to reward your servants, the prophets, your holy people, and those who fear your name, no matter if they are important or unimportant, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."


(LITV-TSP) And the nations were full of wrath; and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your slaves, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.

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I was speaking of your quotation of Matthew 25. And I admit I answered hastily and did not notice that you had this one tucked in at the end of your post. But in doing that. you are posting different scriptures about different events, as if they were one and the same.

 

[Dale]

Compare verse 44 (1 Corinthians 15:44) with the catching up passage below in the same chapter.

Jason, I wish you would quote these passages instead of expecting me to look them up.

You say there is a "catching up" passage in I Corinthians 15. If "catching up" means a Rapture separate from the Second Coming then there are no such passages.

I assume that you are talking about this passage.

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
I Corinthians 15: 51-54 NIV

This is about the last trumpet. It talks about the dead being raised. This happens at the time of the Second Coming. Death cannot be "swallowed up" until Jesus comes.

Look at what Paul does not say here. He does not say that a trumpet (not the last) will sound in heaven and some will ascend to heaven while the earth goes on being ruled by a tyrant who is killing any Christians who can be found. Paul does not say that death has been "swallowed up" for some people, while others continue dying from plagues, war, catastrophes, and even old age. Apparently you are reading this into the text but it isn't there. There is no second-to-last trumpet for a Rapture of Christians while political events are still taking place on earth.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[keras]

In other words you have a problem of anyone using scripture to prove you wrong.

No scripture in this post.
I have proved you wrong from the scriptures I posted and your reply is more of the same low brow type of nonsense.

Ok, so if you see the throne of God you also can see the elders around the throne.

Ezekiel 1:1-28 saw all the host of heaven from where he stood on the earth.

I guess those soul are going to follow the King of Kings into battle without bodies.

It will be the Angel Armies of heaven who accompany Jesus at His Return. Believing otherwise, is unscriptural and false teaching. Matthew 16:27 and Matthew 25:31 prove it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I wish you would quote these passages instead of expecting me to look them up.

You say there is a "catching up" passage in I Corinthians 15. If "catching up" means a Rapture separate from the Second Coming then there are no such passages.

I assume that you are talking about this passage.

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
I Corinthians 15: 51-54 NIV

This is about the last trumpet. It talks about the dead being raised. This happens at the time of the Second Coming. Death cannot be "swallowed up" until Jesus comes.

Look at what Paul does not say here. He does not say that a trumpet (not the last) will sound in heaven and some will ascend to heaven while the earth goes on being ruled by a tyrant who is killing any Christians who can be found. Paul does not say that death has been "swallowed up" for some people, while others continue dying from plagues, war, catastrophes, and even old age. Apparently you are reading this into the text but it isn't there. There is no second-to-last trumpet for a Rapture of Christians while political events are still taking place on earth.

Not all trumps are the same. There is president Trump. There is a trump card in bridge. Trump can also be a verb. There is a trumpet of judgment in Revelation in a series of trumpet blasts. The last trump Paul mentions is a trumpet of deliverance of a catching up of believers. In the Olivet discourse before the breaking of the sixth seal (and before any of the trumpet blasts), believers are told to look up for their redemption draws near. Why would the Lord tell them to look up and say that there redemption draws near? This is clearly the middle of the Tribulation some time after the antichrist takes control of the Jewish temple.

You also have to think that Paul's readers would have no knowledge of any last trump in the book of Revelation, either. So Paul was obviously referring to something that his readers would already know about.

 

[BABerean2]

I was speaking of your quotation of Matthew 25. And I admit I answered hastily and did not notice that you had this one tucked in at the end of your post. But in doing that. you are posting different scriptures about different events, as if they were one and the same.

When does the judgment of the sheep and goats occur?

What did Jesus say?


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


What did Paul say about the judgment of both the living and the dead?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


What did John record in the Book of Revelaiton?

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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[Choose Wisely]

No scripture in this post.

Sorry, I didn't realize that was the only post I've made.

I have proved you wrong from the scriptures I posted and your reply is more of the same low brow type of nonsense.

LOL, you have proved nothing. The scripture says there will be people in heaven that return with Christ after the marriage supper......and you seem to have a problem grasping this truth.

Ezekiel 1:1-28 saw all the host of heaven from where he stood on the earth.

Ok, he saw all the host of heaven. And if he would have done this after the rapture he would have seen the elders around the throne as John did.

It will be the Angel Armies of heaven who accompany Jesus at His Return. Believing otherwise, is unscriptural and false teaching.

Feel free to explain how it is unscriptural and a false teaching that the saints come with the Lord.
Zech 14
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[BABerean2]

Since we know that it is when the 1000 years are finished that the dead are raised, we can deduce that those dead here that are raised, are...as it points out in the same verse..saints, prophets and servants!

You just proved that the 1,000 year period from Revelation chapter 20 ends at the Second Coming of Christ.
Nice work.

Christ returns "in flaming fire", based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20.

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[keras]

Feel free to explain how it is unscriptural and a false teaching that the saints come with the Lord.

I did add the verses of Matthew 16:27 and Matthew 25:31 to my #285. They prove Jesus Returns with His Angel army only. Plus Revelation 19:14 cinches this truth.
The other verses like Zech 14:5 and Jude 1:14b say He comes with His holy ones. The translators have wrongly called them His saints in some versions.
Your fanciful notion of people in heaven is never stated in the Bible, Jesus refutes it as I have proved, but you just blindly press on in your false beliefs, to your discredit.

 

[keras]

Christ returns "in flaming fire", based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20.

BaB, we have disagreed on this belief before. You, like others here, just blindly go on pushing wrong theories and false teachings.
The 3 plain prophesies about the glorious Return of Jesus; Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31 and Zechariah 14:3-21 do NOT mention fire. Jesus is seen by all the world in His glory and He destroys the armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

Fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis come on His Day of vengeance and wrath against the nations, a Day when He won't be seen, Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11
Over 100 prophesies tell us about that Day, at least 7 years before the Return, the Sixth Seal, a similar world changer to what the Lord did in Noah's time.

 

[BABerean2]

BaB, we have disagreed on this belief before. You, like others here, just blindly go on pushing wrong theories and false teachings.
The 3 plain prophesies about the glorious Return of Jesus; Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30-31 and Zechariah 14:3-21 do NOT mention fire. Jesus is seen by all the world in His glory and He destroys the armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

Fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis come on His Day of vengeance and wrath against the nations, a Day when He won't be seen, Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11
Over 100 prophesies tell us about that Day, at least 7 years before the Return, the Sixth Seal, a similar world changer to what the Lord did in Noah's time.

You are still wrong.
But I still love you.


2Pe 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
2Pe 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

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[Choose Wisely]

I did add the verses of Matthew 16:27 and Matthew 25:31 to my #285. They prove Jesus Returns with His Angel army only. Plus Revelation 19:14 cinches this truth.
The other verses like Zech 14:5 and Jude 1:14b say He comes with His holy ones. The translators have wrongly called them His saints in some versions.
Your fanciful notion of people in heaven is never stated in the Bible, Jesus refutes it as I have proved, but you just blindly press on in your false beliefs, to your discredit.

LOL............Got to admit you are as confused as anyone I have ever seen. You have got to be dreaming all this stuff up on your own as I have never heard such confusion. Is there a name for this line of thought?

 

[keras]

LOL............Got to admit you are as confused as anyone I have ever seen. You have got to be dreaming all this stuff up on your own as I have never heard such confusion. Is there a name for this line of thought?

Yes; common sense and plain logic.
I have proved you to be wrong, Jesus Returns with His angel army only. He does bring the souls of the martyrs and our rewards with Him.

Instead of admitting your error, you just rave on, seemingly unable to see the truth or change your beliefs despite having the truth shown to you.
There is a name for your line of thought: pig-headedness!

Bab, please show the verse in 2 Peter 3:5-13 that says Jesus Returns in fire for His Millennium reign.

 

[BABerean2]

Bab, please show the verse in 2 Peter 3:5-13 that says Jesus Returns in fire for His Millennium reign.

Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

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[Choose Wisely]

Yes; common sense and plain logic.
I have proved you to be wrong, Jesus Returns with His angel army only. He does bring the souls of the martyrs and our rewards with Him.

Instead of admitting your error, you just rave on, seemingly unable to see the truth or change your beliefs despite having the truth shown to you.
There is a name for your line of thought: pig-headedness!

Bab, please show the verse in 2 Peter 3:5-13 that says Jesus Returns in fire for His Millennium reign.

You have proven nothing. All the verses that you post are completely taken out of context......as I have shown.

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[keras]

Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. .

This is just foolishness and a failed attempt to prove a false belief.

Revelation 20:9 describes how God will cremate the army of Satan at the end of the Millennium and throw him into the Lake of fire.
There is no fire anywhere at the glorious Return of Jesus. Why should there be?
But at the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, He will send fire, Psalms 11:4-6, as described in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9.

 

[keras]

You have proven nothing. All the verses that you post are completely taken out of context......as I have shown.

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

CONTEXT:
John 14:18 & 28 I will not leave you bereft, I am coming back to you.
Not; you are coming up to Me, but Jesus will Return to us.

You have yet to provide any proper proof of a 'rapture to heaven'.
What gives you the idea that those mansions are for Christians as we are now? We are told that we must undergo trials and face the Lord's Judgement before His rewards are given. 1 Peter 4:12, Hebrews 12:7-13

 

[Choose Wisely]

CONTEXT:
John 14:18 & 28 I will not leave you bereft, I am coming back to you.
Not; you are coming up to Me, but Jesus will Return to us.

You have yet to provide any proper proof of a 'rapture to heaven'.
What gives you the idea that those mansions are for Christians as we are now? We are told that we must undergo trials and face the Lord's Judgement before His rewards are given. 1 Peter 4:12, Hebrews 12:7-13

Yeah right that's why there are many mansions in His fathers house, cause He was teasing us.

You can hang around and undergo trials if that's your bag. I prefer to accept what is offered:

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[BABerean2]

There is no fire anywhere at the glorious Return of Jesus. Why should there be?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

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[BABerean2]

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