Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

[Oldmantook]

No. See Post #90.

Yes. I responded to the very scripture citations you posted in #90 to demonstrate that they cannot mean what you interpret them to mean.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

This statement does not make sense. How can you remove the Bride and leave the "new Christians" behind? All because of timing?? Naw... Pre-trib falls apart when you start to add things up.

Actually it makes complete sense .
When Christ (The Groom) removes the Church (The Bride) before the 7 year tribulation all the Christians will be gone.
All believers from the day of Pentacost till the time of the removal of the Bride (Church) , are the ones who make up the Church.
Those who receive Christ as Saviour during the 7 year tribulation and die as martyrs during that time will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ.
Which is a separate and distinct event from the rapture of the Church.
Actually when you add things up as you say , the pre-trib view makes complete sense and does not fall apart whatsoever.
What confuses many people is the resurrection of the just.
It doesn't happened at the same time , but in stages which is 100% Scriptural.

 

[BibleloverBill]

Do you still believe that Jesus Christ will return before tribulation in the USA?

The rise in belief in the pre-tribulation rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861, but two important passages demonstrating a post-tribulation view were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the rapture. The two removed segments were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept". (from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Luke 17:26-37
26 “And [just] as it was in the days of Noah,
so will it be in the time of the Son of Man.
27 [People] ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage,
right up to the day when Noah went into the ark,
and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 So also [it was the same] as it was in the days of Lot.
[People] ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 But on the [very] day that Lot went out of Sodom,
it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [them] all.
30 That is the way it will be on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
31 On that day let him who is on the housetop, with his belongings in the house,
not come down [and go inside] to carry them away;
and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back.
32 Remember Lot's wife!
33 Whoever tries to preserve his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life will preserve and quicken it.
34 I tell you, in that night
there will be two men in one bed;
one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 There will be two women grinding together;
one will be taken and the other will be left.
36 Two men will be in the field;
one will be taken and the other will be left.”
37 Then they asked Him, “Where, Lord?”
He said to them,
“Wherever the dead body is,
there will the vultures {or} eagles be gathered together.”

What is the context of the most popular “secret rapture” pre-Tribulation rapture theory verses in Luke 17:34-35? What time is it really speaking about? Why is judgment indicated in most of the verses when such is not supposed to happen until 7 years after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ according to the pre-Tribulation rapture believers? What does the word “woman” symbolize in the prophesies of Revelation? What could the two pairs of men in verse 34 & 36 symbolize? Check the rapture prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15 for the answer. What do vulture and eagles do with dead animal and human bodies?

Revelation 9:13-18
13 And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,
“Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.”
15 And the four angels were loosed,
which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year,
for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand;
and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision,
and them that sat on them,
having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone;
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed,
by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone,
which issued out of their mouths.


1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (written to Christians)
50 Now this I say, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I show you a mystery:
we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (written to Christians)
16 “For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven
with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

But what do you think would happen when very rough times occur in the USA and Europe before the rapture? Anger against pastors and TV preachers will happen because the End Times theory they promoted was not true. And what does anger cause people (even church attendees) to do? How much teaching about God’s promises and expectations have you heard preached? And isn’t such information very important in challenging situations? How are you using the time of spiritual freedom to do the Great Commission? This time period could end very soon for the whole world.


If you want more information about the End Times concerns, go to Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://www.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a .

 

[BibleloverBill]

God's Wrath is after the world-wide Tribulation. Tribulation for Christians is happening now in Islamic countries and in China. In the just mentioned countries even Muslims are being arrested and sent to re-education concentrartion camps.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This statement does not make sense. How can you remove the Bride and leave the "new Christians" behind? All because of timing?? Naw... Pre-trib falls apart when you start to add things up.

Nothing in the pre-trib view makes sense...........

God's Wrath is after the world-wide Tribulation. Tribulation for Christians is happening now in Islamic countries and in China. In the just mentioned countries even Muslims are being arrested and sent to re-education concentrartion camps.

The Pre trib rapture view is, in IMHO, the most damaging doctrine within Christianity today [about as bad as the Full Preterism doctrine], and I pray one day it goes the way of the Do-Do Bird [wishful thinking]

Now, I can view a post-trib, pre-wrath rapture...........
Paul tells us to encourage and build one another up, so why would anyone want to pray or even think about a pre-trib rapture?

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing.

Never in the whole NT does it say anywhere that Christians won't go thru tribulation.
In fact it shows we are actually strengthened and that we are to strengthen others until our death or untill the wrath comes, then be "raptured".
That appears to be more scriptural........

Mat 13:21
“yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while.
For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles
Rom 5:3 - And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations,
knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
2 Co 1:4
who comforts us in all our tribulation,
that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Here is tribulation. Did God rapture Paul or his followers to keep them from going thru it?

Here Paul talks about himself and followers' tribulation:

1 Corinthians 4:
8 Already you have all you want. Already you have become rich. Without us, you have become kings. How I wish you really were kings, so that we might be kings with you.
9 For it seems to me that God has displayed us apostles at the end of the procession, like prisoners appointed for death.
We have become a spectacle to the whole world, to angels as well as to men.
10 We are fools for Christ, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are honored, but we are dishonored.
11 To this very hour we are hungry and thirsty,
we are poorly clothed,
we are brutally treated,
we are homeless.
12 We work hard with our own hands.
When we are vilified, we bless;
when we are persecuted, we endure it;
13 when we are slandered, we answer gently.
Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

2 Corinthians 11
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more:
in harder labor<2873>,
in more imprisonments<5438>,
in worse beatings<4127>,
in frequent danger of death.
24 By Judeans five times the forty minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods<4463>,
once I was stoned<3034>,
three times I was shipwrecked. I spent a night and a day in the open sea.
26 In my frequent journeys,
I have been in dangers of rivers
and to dangers of bandits<3027>,
in dangers from my fellow race,
from Gentiles,
in city and
in wilderness,
in danger on the sea
and to dangers in false brothers,
27 in labor<3449> and toil<2773> and often without sleep,
in hunger and thirst, and often without food,
in cold and exposure<1132>.

Revelation 7:14
and I said to Him, `Lord! of me, Thou hast known;'.
And He said to me, `These are the ones coming out of the great Tribulation and they wash the robes of them, and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin;

This shows Saints are still being killed during the Trib?

Rev 6:11
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer,
until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.




.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That is after the 1000 years. That does not include those Raptured, or who are saved now. We will already be in heaven with Him.
1 Cor 15:50 Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Re 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So, we will not be raised in the great judgment after the thousand years because we were already raised!

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
That's what the Jews thought about the messiah coming!

It was a mystery. Paul in the verse I cited shows us another mystery.


There are a few ideas on that this verse refers to. Some think that it refers to believers, how that some will have had such rotten lives in many ways, that they will have some shame even in heaven. Others think it refers probably to that final judgment after the 1000 years. If that is the case then we see we jump a long time mid verse. Just like in the verse Jesus was reading about the messiah coming, and He stopped mid verse...because the rest of the verse had to do with His second coming.
My opinion is the latter.

The one thousand year reign of Christ is and has been in effect since His resurrection.

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Do you not know that the first resurrection are all His SAINTS? Those who are in Body of Christ. The rest of the dead are the unbelievers, they too will be resurrected on the last day to face judgment. The second death will overtake them. And to those who are in the Body? They will not suffer the second death. You see, the first resurrection are those in the Body and the second are those who are not.

No secret rapture.
Blessings

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Actually it makes complete sense .
When Christ (The Groom) removes the Church (The Bride) before the 7 year tribulation all the Christians will be gone.
All believers from the day of Pentacost till the time of the removal of the Bride (Church) , are the ones who make up the Church.
Those who receive Christ as Saviour during the 7 year tribulation and die as martyrs during that time will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ.
Which is a separate and distinct event from the rapture of the Church.
Actually when you add things up as you say , the pre-trib view makes complete sense and does not fall apart whatsoever.
What confuses many people is the resurrection of the just.
It doesn't happened at the same time , but in stages which is 100% Scriptural.

We have been down this road.
Blessings

 

[*Light*]

I'm sorry but your entire post and efforts to refute Pre-Trib theology is pointless, and an absolute waste of time. Who are you to say that Pre-Trib is wrong? Who am I to call you wrong? Do you want the real answer? No one, I repeat no one has a single clue when the rapture will take place. This is all just a bunch of man-made theories and man's interpretation of the Word of God. Jesus fullfilled all of the scriptures in a way that none of the Jews could've even comprehended I mean imagine it God himself was the Messiah and on top of that he blew away every single Rabbinical interpretation, commentary, and teaching that had been written in the Talmud. God is and will not be restricted to what or how we think he will return. Scripture promises the return of Jesus and that there will be a rapture. This ridiculous theological debate has to come to an end

I apologize if I may have missed replying to other posts directed at me. I barely have the time to do anything apart from my minstry that I am occupied with almost most of the day, each day.

Hello Sir,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I have not seen any refutations to any of my arguments. You did not attempt to refute a single one of my points. Your comments may seem to you to be refutations but they don't apply to any of the arguments NOR do they explain how any of my very clear scriptures do not mean precisely what they say. All you were able to do was to assert without proof of any sort that the myth-rapture and the 2nd Advent are two distinct events. They happen at the same time -- which is the important thing. The IRONY in what you wrote and your line of reasoning regarding the precise timing of the Rapture is also "pointless". You have not paid attention to what I have written. No one (including me) ever, not ONCE, stated that any of us knows when the EXACT timing of the Rapture would occur. This thread and topic is NOT about that -- it is about whether it occurs BEFORE or AFTER the Tribulation. What is also troubling is how you chose to IGNORE clear and precise exegesis of whether or not the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture -- all of that flew out the window, and NONE of those refutations were taken into consideration by you. Is that how you view the IMPORTANCE of Scripture? This is a VERY dangerous way to view Scripture because it stunts your learning and understanding of the totality of Scripture -- and case in point as you have just shown to me and others. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are "digging your own pit" in which you will one day fall into if you fail to grow in the knowledge of the Truth by ignoring what it CLEARLY says.

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:7)"

And for the sake of other readers who hold to the re-Trib view:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, [until he be taken out of the way]. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:3-8)"

NOTHING in the entirety of Scripture does it ever say anything about the Church being "removed" during the Great Triulation. There are so many holes in the Pre-Trib doctrine, and I am stunned that such erudite bible teachers such as Dr. John MacArthur can hold to such a false view. He stated that IF the Church were to indeed go through the Tribulation period, then why aren't there any "instructions" on how the Church is supposed to prepare themselves during this event. That is NOT an argument from Scripture; it is nothing more than his personal opinion. What he fails to realize is that the church will be *persecuted* by the Antichrist during the Tribulation period. Using that same reasoning, should all the martyrs in the past, present, and the future, be given specific "instructions" on how to deal with persecution? Do you see the fallacy in such faulty reasoning?

This is an involved teaching, so while I'll give you the gist here. The Spirit is the Restrainer. The Spirit is God and is therefore *Omnipresent*. He is never "removed" as that would be impossible. At the moment, He is restraining the revelation of antichrist; but when the Tribulation begins, He will no longer be doing so. He will also allow much to happen that in the past was restrained by Him. The Bible calls this "the empowerment of error", and this will have a great hand in accelerating all of the Tribulation's negative trends. There is no scripture which even hints at believers losing the Spirit (we never will). The fact that the 144K Jewish evangelists -- who are most likely not even believers today -- will be sealed does not mean that we will be "unsealed"; such a thing is not mentioned in scripture nor even theoretically possible . . . and it is NO evidence for a myth-rapture. I mean this in all sincerity and care for those reading. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is an end-time deception, and unfortunately there are MANY Genuine Christians who have fallen for this false teaching.

God Bless!

 

[DennisTate]

i really don't know if it pre-trib, mid trib or post trib... but.....
I now believe that there really is something to the idea:

Dr. Richard Eby's Near-Death Experience and the Second Coming of Christ

He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you 'might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth.

"My book records the many signs which will precede my coming for my family. I tried to explain those events to my disciples, very carefully. I promised them that I was leaving my Holy Spirit as a comforter to instruct them as they studied my word, and to tell them of the things to come. I want my children to be informed about our plans in advance. I want them to be filled with my joy. After all, they are mine: I created them and bought them back from satanic slavery. I told them that I would come for them so that we could be together forever. My Father wants them all to believe Me."

Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.

God Bless!

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

this passage speaks of saints being raised1thess4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus said when it will happen;
Jn6:
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[*Light*]

i really don't know if it pre-trib, mid trib or post trib... but.....
I now believe that there really is something to the idea:

Dr. Richard Eby's Near-Death Experience and the Second Coming of Christ

Thank you for your reply regarding Near Death Experiences, DennisTate. I have just now created a new thread discussing Near Death Experiences. You can find it here:

Near Death Experiences

And thank you ICONO'CLAST for your reply also.

God Bless!

 

[Choose Wisely]

What is the context of the most popular “secret rapture” pre-Tribulation rapture theory verses in Luke 17:34-35? What time is it really speaking about? Why is judgment indicated in most of the verses when such is not supposed to happen until 7 years after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ according to the pre-Tribulation rapture believers?

Yes, destruction comes 7 years after Christ comes for His church. And we know that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the destruction of the flood.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Pre-trib removal of the Church is 100% LEGIT.

 

[Rawtheran]

I apologize if I may have missed replying to other posts directed at me. I barely have the time to do anything apart from my minstry that I am occupied with almost most of the day, each day.

Hello Sir,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I have not seen any refutations to any of my arguments. You did not attempt to refute a single one of my points. Your comments may seem to you to be refutations but they don't apply to any of the arguments NOR do they explain how any of my very clear scriptures do not mean precisely what they say. All you were able to do was to assert without proof of any sort that the myth-rapture and the 2nd Advent are two distinct events. They happen at the same time -- which is the important thing. The IRONY in what you wrote and your line of reasoning regarding the precise timing of the Rapture is also "pointless". You have not paid attention to what I have written. No one (including me) ever, not ONCE, stated that any of us knows when the EXACT timing of the Rapture would occur. This thread and topic is NOT about that -- it is about whether it occurs BEFORE or AFTER the Tribulation. What is also troubling is how you chose to IGNORE clear and precise exegesis of whether or not the Bible teaches a Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture -- all of that flew out the window, and NONE of those refutations were taken into consideration by you. Is that how you view the IMPORTANCE of Scripture? This is a VERY dangerous way to view Scripture because it stunts your learning and understanding of the totality of Scripture -- and case in point as you have just shown to me and others. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are "digging your own pit" in which you will one day fall into if you fail to grow in the knowledge of the Truth by ignoring what it CLEARLY says.

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:7)"

And for the sake of other readers who hold to the re-Trib view:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, [until he be taken out of the way]. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:3-8)"

NOTHING in the entirety of Scripture does it ever say anything about the Church being "removed" during the Great Triulation. There are so many holes in the Pre-Trib doctrine, and I am stunned that such erudite bible teachers such as Dr. John MacArthur can hold to such a false view. He stated that IF the Church were to indeed go through the Tribulation period, then why aren't there any "instructions" on how the Church is supposed to prepare themselves during this event. That is NOT an argument from Scripture; it is nothing more than his personal opinion. What he fails to realize is that the church will be *persecuted* by the Antichrist during the Tribulation period. Using that same reasoning, should all the martyrs in the past, present, and the future, be given specific "instructions" on how to deal with persecution? Do you see the fallacy in such faulty reasoning?

This is an involved teaching, so while I'll give you the gist here. The Spirit is the Restrainer. The Spirit is God and is therefore *Omnipresent*. He is never "removed" as that would be impossible. At the moment, He is restraining the revelation of antichrist; but when the Tribulation begins, He will no longer be doing so. He will also allow much to happen that in the past was restrained by Him. The Bible calls this "the empowerment of error", and this will have a great hand in accelerating all of the Tribulation's negative trends. There is no scripture which even hints at believers losing the Spirit (we never will). The fact that the 144K Jewish evangelists -- who are most likely not even believers today -- will be sealed does not mean that we will be "unsealed"; such a thing is not mentioned in scripture nor even theoretically possible . . . and it is NO evidence for a myth-rapture. I mean this in all sincerity and care for those reading. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is an end-time deception, and unfortunately there are MANY Genuine Christians who have fallen for this false teaching.

God Bless!

Dear Mr. Light,

Thank you for replying to my comment and I'll start by saying the reason I did not attempt to argue or refute any of your claims is because the Post, Mid, and Pre rapture debate in my opinion is a pointless one and I do not take kindly to you saying that another point of view is wrong based on YOUR OWN personal exegesis. The goal of my post which I apologize was not written in a very academic or scholarly way because I was using my cell phone was written in a manner as to address the point that there is nothing wrong with what you believe and it is healthy to have these types of discussions but what I don't think is Biblically sound on your part is to make the claim that you know for certain that Pre-Trib is wrong because for every type of scripture or piece of evidence that you produce, the opponent can easily do the same thing. There is a difference between proof and evidence. If one side was truly right than all of Christendom would be in agreement with that type of doctrine. Biblically speaking and using several of the letters of the early church fathers who were themselves divided on the issue of when the rapture would occur we know that someday there will be some type of rapture event that will take place but for now no one unless they have some sort of anointing, or calling given to them directly by God to combat a particular doctrine that is not sound. Coming here with your own personal agenda is not something that sounds very spirit led to me and I urge you to recheck the scriptures for yourself and to also read some biblical commentaries about the tribulation, the rapture, etc. The ancient Jews once thought they had sound exegesis and many of them completely missed the point of what Jesus was trying to say and teach to them. Scripture is authoritative yes but our own personal views and opinions on scripture are not. Good day or night to you sir.

 

[dad]

The one thousand year reign of Christ is and has been in effect since His resurrection.

Ah, there is your problem. I have not noticed me ruling and reigning with Christ have you? We shall rule and reign with Him you know. I have not noticed Satan bound and out of the picture here, have you? I have not see Jesus return, have you? I have not seen the mount of Olives split in two...etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Not to mention that the Resurrection was more than a thousand years ago, so I guess the dead were raised and judged?

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Do you not know that the first resurrection are all His SAINTS?

Also called the Rapture...so?

Those who are in Body of Christ. The rest of the dead are the unbelievers, they too will be resurrected on the last day to face judgment.

Right, after the thousand years that you think started 2000 years ago!

The second death will overtake them. And to those who are in the Body? They will not suffer the second death. You see, the first resurrection are those in the Body and the second are those who are not.

Not sure you are aware of what you are saying or what it means.

No secret rapture.
Blessings

A Rapture..yes. Unless you think we all miss the marriage supper during the Trib? Unless you think we are appointed to wrath? Sorry, the claim that the Millennium started 2000 years ago is absurd. I have not noticed lions eating grass either! Nor have I noticed that all towers on earth fell, all mountains were flattened, all stars and sun and moon went out, the 144,000 Jews witnessing, nor the 2 witnesses who are killed before the 1000 years start. Etc.

 

[BABerean2]

Dr. Richard Eby's Near-Death Experience and the Second Coming of Christ

If the Dr. said Christ would return when he was alive, and the Dr. died in 2002, why are we even discussing the rest of his story?


A better version of a NDE would be the book "90 Minutes in Heaven", which is the story of Don Piper.

https://www.amazon.com/90-Minutes-H...-1&keywords=90+minutes+in+heaven+by+don+piper

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If the Dr. said Christ would return when he was alive, and the Dr. died in 2002, why are we even discussing the rest of his story?

A better version of a NDE would be the book "90 Minutes in Heaven", which is the story of Don Piper.
.

Maybe there will be a place like "Judgement City".

.....................

.

 

[BibleloverBill]

Pan-Millenialism-- it will all pan-out at the End. The most important thing is having the right Faith in the Full Gospel (Good News). Arguing is usually fruitless. But discussions in which those involved want to learn bless all involved. While we still have religious freedoms, we should be creating many Bible Study discussion groups in homes like the First Century Church. God hates routine religion and large church buildings etc.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Ah, there is your problem. I have not noticed me ruling and reigning with Christ have you? We shall rule and reign with Him you know. I have not noticed Satan bound and out of the picture here, have you? I have not see Jesus return, have you? I have not seen the mount of Olives split in two...etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Not to mention that the Resurrection was more than a thousand years ago, so I guess the dead were raised and judged?


Also called the Rapture...so?

Right, after the thousand years that you think started 2000 years ago!

Not sure you are aware of what you are saying or what it means.

A Rapture..yes. Unless you think we all miss the marriage supper during the Trib? Unless you think we are appointed to wrath? Sorry, the claim that the Millennium started 2000 years ago is absurd. I have not noticed lions eating grass either! Nor have I noticed that all towers on earth fell, all mountains were flattened, all stars and sun and moon went out, the 144,000 Jews witnessing, nor the 2 witnesses who are killed before the 1000 years start. Etc.

Thank you for the interaction. We will go round and round on this. I am amillennial so we will never agree. I am also a partial Preterist, not a full one. I believe most of Revelation was fulfilled in 70ad with only the "last day" left to be fulfilled where each and every human being who walked the earth will be raised. Some will suffer the second death and some with be in the Kingdom of God forever.
Blessings!

 

[tdidymas]

If this event is not pre-trib, then Christ comes not as a thief.

Christ comes "as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 16:15-16.
Both passages are clearly Second Coming passages.

Cut both of those passages out of your Bible, if you are going to make your statement above work.

You should read the whole verse of 2 Pet. 3:10: "The day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar..."

The thief analogy is talking about the approach of the day of the Lord, not the day itself. In every scripture that gives this analogy, it is like the thief who comes "when you are least expecting him." But if you think the analogy tells a whole story, that the day of the Lord comes and goes without the world knowing it, then your idea of the analogy doesn't fit the context of those passages. Every pretribber needs to study this carefully, and come to the same conclusion that these verses, and thus this analogy, does not support the "secret rapture" idea (that is, secret from the world's viewpoint, which is the image that the "Left Behind" series gives us).
TD