Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

[*Light*]

Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.

God Bless!

 

[bcbsr]

Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.

God Bless!

A Pre-Trib rapture has little basis in scripture. They end up reading into a few verses while ignoring whole passages that speak explicitly on the subject. As I see it if a person holds a pre-trib position it calls into question their competence to study the Bible.

Anyone can view my own study on the matter.

 

[rockytopva]

If this event is not pre-trib, then Christ comes not as a thief.

 

[BABerean2]

If this event is not pre-trib, then Christ comes not as a thief.

Christ comes "as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 16:15-16.
Both passages are clearly Second Coming passages.

Cut both of those passages out of your Bible, if you are going to make your statement above work.

.

 

[*Light*]

Thank you for sharing the link to your study refuting the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View. Some Pre-Tribbers use the argument that the church is not found during the Tribulation; but the bible clearly states that there are saints (Grk. "hagiazo") during the Tribulation Period.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came OUT OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9,14)"

They are not kept OUT of the Great Tribulation, but rather they are kept FROM the Wrath of God which is poured out during the Great Tribulation (cf. Rev. 7:1-8; 9:4). Those with the "seal of God in their foreheads" will be protected during the Tribulation from the judgments which are poured out upon the unbelieving world. The words "keep from" (tereo ek) in the Greek mentioned in Revelation 3:10 implies protection "from" and not "out of" -- and this is used elsewhere in Scripture to prove this point.

I think that most Pre-Tribber's shouldn't be so concerned about this so much as that they should just live a life worthy unto the Lord. To be faithful to stay on the straight and narrow, and to not deviate to the right or to the left. In doing so . . . they will not be caught "off-guard" regardless of when the timing of the Rapture will occur (cf. Matt. 24:42-44; 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Pet. 3:10; Rev. 16:15; 22:12).

God Bless!

 

[rockytopva]

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. - Mark 13

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Thank you for sharing the link to your study refuting the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View. Some Pre-Tribbers use the argument that the church is not found during the Tribulation; but the bible clearly states that there are saints (Grk. "hagiazo") during the Tribulation Period.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came OUT OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9,14)"

They are not kept OUT of the Great Tribulation, but rather they are kept FROM the Wrath of God which is poured out during the Great Tribulation (cf. Rev. 7:1-8; 9:4). Those with the "seal of God in their foreheads" will be protected during the Tribulation from the judgments which are poured out upon the unbelieving world. The words "keep from" (tereo ek) in the Greek mentioned in Revelation 3:10 implies protection "from" and not "out of" -- and this is used elsewhere in Scripture to prove this point.

I think that most Pre-Tribber's shouldn't be so concerned about this so much as that they should just live a life worthy unto the Lord. To be faithful to stay on the straight and narrow, and to not deviate to the right or to the left. In doing so . . . they will not be caught "off-guard" regardless of when the timing of the Rapture will occur (cf. Matt. 24:42-44; 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Pet. 3:10; Rev. 16:15; 22:12).

God Bless!

Yes there will be saints during the tribulation period because multitudes come to Christ as Saviour during that time.
That however does not refute that the Church (Bride) will be removed before God's divine judgment comes upon a rebellious and rejecting world.

Those that are sealed that you speak of are the 144,000 sons of Israel.
12,000 from each 12 tribes.
They will be divinely sealed and protected by God.
They will evangelize during the tribulation.
One cannot state that God keeps all the tribulation saints safe during that time time because many will be beheaded for their testimony and refusal to worship the Anti-Christ .

And regardless of what any believer view(s) are regarding the end times prophecy , they/we should always live a life accepting unto the Lord.

I have said this countless times and will continue to do so and that is most people have a misunderstanding about the resurrection for the just.
The resurrection for the just happens only one time for the just , but in stages.
Unlike the resurrection for the unjust also only one time , but not in stages.
If one cannot grasp this truth then they will be misguided regarding the truths and order of events during the end of times.

It is one if not the biggest stumbling block for many who study this topic .
The other would be that people don't realize that the removal of the Church before the 7 year tribulation and The Second Coming of Christ are two DISTINCT and SEPARATE events.

The Second Coming of Christ, He literally sets foot upon the Mount of Olives.
The removal of the Church , believers meet the Lord in the clouds/air.

Two seperate and distinct events.

 

[*Light*]

Hello, ItIsFinished,

When I said that the saints are protected; I meant that they are protected from God's Divine judgment during the Tribulation -- and NOT from the persecution of the Antichrist. I also cited many bible passages in their context which clearly refutes that there are two distinct events. You can see the parallel between the biblical passages I cited. But I have yet to see any of the biblical passages I cited refuted in any such way; nor any biblical texts which prove your position. I see your interpretations -- but no bible verses to prove that these are two distinct events. These seem to be clearly be ignored by Pre-Tribbers. This is the reason why I cited those bible passages in particular; so those who hold to the Pre-Trib view can understand those passages in its "context" -- and how it clearly goes against their Pre-Trib teaching.

God Bless!

 

[eleos1954]

Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Now, I am not a expert of Eschatology; but I have upon years of study, have come to the conclusion that the "Pre-Trib" rapture view is NOT taught in Scripture. I began as Pre-Trib view, then I switched to the Post-Trib view after listening and reading biblical exegesis which pointed to this doctrine. I switched back to the Pre-Trib view after hearing sermons and teachings on this view from notable bible Pastors and teachers who taught this Eschatological view. These men had some strong biblical viewpoints which "seemingly" pointed to a Pre-Trib Rapture view. I had prayed over this and asked the Lord to reveal the TRUE view regarding the timing of the Rapture. And it has been revealed that the Pre-Trib rapture view is unsubstantiated.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17)"

Meet the Lord (Grk. "apantesis" ἀπάντησις). We find the very SAME words in Greek Literature to describe the people of a city going out of the city to *greet* an incoming dignitary (i.e., "a returning conqueror") to welcome Him back into the city. The elect of God will be gathered in the air to greet and welcome Him as He visibly returns to Earth. We can see a parallel in Mark 13:27

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26-27)"

This is the "gathering" of the elect to greet Christ as He returns and comes visibly to Earth. Nothing in this passage indicates an "invisible" return of Christ or snatching the elect out of the World. Verse 14 of Thessalonians 4 is clearly referring to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; and this is the event which occurs at the end of History.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29)"

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:51-55)"

The Return of Christ is inextricably linked to the resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of death itself.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)"

This is the SAME event which is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The same Greek word used for "the coming" (Grk. "parousia" παρουσία) of the Lord is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Now if we were to go back to Mark 13:13-14 regarding the Olivet Discourse, we read:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Mark 13:13-14)"

2 Thessalonians 2:4 is parallel to Mark 13:14 regarding the "abomination of desolation". So this is NOT an event which takes place prior to the Second Coming of Christ and the Tribulation. This is an event which follows the rebellion or apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Also consider the gathering of the elect mentioned in Mark 13:27. This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. Compare that with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 which speaks of the assembling or gathering to meet Christ. The Greek word used here is "episynagoge" (ἐπισυναγωγή); and this is the SAME event which Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse. So where did Paul get his information regarding the Second Coming of Christ? He got it from Jesus Himself!

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven) in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.

God Bless!

All will go through the tribulation until Jesus 2nd coming and it's no secret.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[com7fy8]

If this event is not pre-trib, then Christ comes not as a thief.

Which scripture says Jesus will come as a thief in the night?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 says "the day of the Lord" is coming "as a thief in the night".

And 2 Peter 3:10 also says "the day of the Lord" shall come "as a thief in the night".

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Hello, ItIsFinished,

When I said that the saints are protected; I meant that they are protected from God's Divine judgment during the Tribulation -- and NOT from the persecution of the Antichrist. I also cited many bible passages in their context which clearly refutes that there are two distinct events. You can see the parallel between the biblical passages I cited. But I have yet to see any of the biblical passages I cited refuted in any such way; nor any biblical texts which prove your position. I see your interpretations -- but no bible verses to prove that these are two distinct events. These seem to be clearly be ignored by Pre-Tribbers. This is the reason why I cited those bible passages in particular; so those who hold to the Pre-Trib view can understand those passages in its "context" -- and how it clearly goes against their Pre-Trib teaching.

God Bless!

And friend I can say the same about your interpretations.
Nothing in this thread has refuted the pre-trib rapture whatsoever.

 

[*Light*]

And friend I can say the same about your interpretations.
Nothing in this thread has refuted the pre-trib rapture whatsoever.

Hi again my brother in Christ,

I would have to disagree because I have actually brought up *bible verses* which refutes the Pre-Trib view. If you feel as if none of those texts I cited in any way refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view, then please explain why do you believe this is such. From what I've gleaned from studying Scripture to understand its precise meaning and context, is that I am always open to correction if I can be shown with Crystal Clarity that I am incorrect in my position. I have also learned that if someone already has their mind "made up", then there is very little chance in attempting to prove that they are "incorrect" about a certain biblical teaching or doctrine; or to get them to change their view -- especially if they held their view for such a long period of time. This causes much trouble when one is attempting to study themselves approved as a workman approved by God who rightly handles the Word of Truth (cf. Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 2:15). However, if such a person is OPEN to the possibility that they MAY be incorrect in their theological position, then this leaves room for improvement and growth in their understanding of Scripture.

Most reputable and revered bible teachers and scholars almost NEVER switch their view on a particular biblical doctrine even if they are CLEARLY shown to be in error. I think this comes about as a result of pride; and that they "fear" that those who have entrusted in them to be their source of correct biblical doctrine will feel "let down" because of this. Btw, I am not saying that such is the case with you. I am just giving an example of why some bible students refuse to be corrected in their view of Scripture. This sort of mentality will "stunt" their understanding of biblical Truth's and their accuracy because they refuse to submit to correction. As I said just above: I am ALWAYS open to rebuke and correction if I can be shown with Crystal Clarity using hermeneutics and eisegesis that my particular view and understanding of Scripture that I hold to is indeed in error. I will do some more study and research on your first reply to my topic and get back to you when I have the time.

God Bless!

 

[Choose Wisely]

Topic: The Dangers of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture View.

For the Pre-tribbers: Please do not take this the wrong way. I am here to warn of the dangers and fallacy of this Eschatological view.

Thanks for the warning......but it is not necessary. Just because you can determine that the pretribulation model that is commonly presented is wrong........that does not mean that there is not going to be a pretribulation rapture.

The marriage supper of the Lamb will take place at the Father's House (i.e., "heaven)

Bingo

in the time between the rapture and the Second coming of Christ; and this occurs during the Tribulation.

The marriage supper of the lamb does not occur during the tribulation. The marriage supper of the lamb occurs during the wrath of God.

If you are still confused about the timing of the Rapture, then please hear a biblical scholar who clearly refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view.

I'm not confused on the timing of the raptures. The video was too long to watch, but I probably know what it says without even watching. That said, proving that Jack and Jill went up the hill does not prove that Bill and Betty did not go up the hill first.

God Bless!

Thanks and may he bless you too!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi again my brother in Christ,

I would have to disagree because I have actually brought up *bible verses* which refutes the Pre-Trib view.
Most reputable and revered bible teachers and scholars almost NEVER switch their view on a particular biblical doctrine even if they are CLEARLY shown to be in error. I think this comes about as a result of pride; and that they "fear" that those who have entrusted in them to be their source of correct biblical doctrine will feel "let down" because of this.
God Bless!

Great thread and good post.
I have noticed that once zionist dispenstionalist futurists turn to preterism, they never look back.
But I have never known preterists to revert back to that doctrine.

And like this guy says, even when one leaves that doctrine, the cobwebs can remain for some time afterward.............

Everything you wanted to know about the doctrine of dispensationalism but were afraid to ask, and for good reason!

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…



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[Choose Wisely]

Hi again my brother in Christ,

I would have to disagree because I have actually brought up *bible verses* which refutes the Pre-Trib view. If you feel as if none of those texts I cited in any way refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view, then please explain why do you believe this is such. From what I've gleaned from studying Scripture to understand its precise meaning and context, is that I am always open to correction if I can be shown with Crystal Clarity that I am incorrect in my position. I have also learned that if someone already has their mind "made up", then there is very little chance in attempting to prove that they are "incorrect" about a certain biblical teaching or doctrine; or to get them to change their view -- especially if they held their view for such a long period of time. This causes much trouble when one is attempting to study themselves approved as a workman approved by God who rightly handles the Word of Truth (cf. Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 2:15). However, if such a person is OPEN to the possibility that they MAY be incorrect in their theological position, then this leaves room for improvement and growth in their understanding of Scripture.

Most reputable and revered bible teachers and scholars almost NEVER switch their view on a particular biblical doctrine even if they are CLEARLY shown to be in error. I think this comes about as a result of pride; and that they "fear" that those who have entrusted in them to be their source of correct biblical doctrine will feel "let down" because of this. Btw, I am not saying that such is the case with you. I am just giving an example of why some bible students refuse to be corrected in their view of Scripture. This sort of mentality will "stunt" their understanding of biblical Truth's and their accuracy because they refuse to submit to correction. As I said just above: I am ALWAYS open to rebuke and correction if I can be shown with Crystal Clarity using hermeneutics and eisegesis that my particular view and understanding of Scripture that I hold to is indeed in error. I will do some more study and research on your first reply to my topic and get back to you when I have the time.

God Bless!

Great response and you are 100% correct. I have never seen ANYONE on these forums change their positions........DESPITE ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT THEY ARE WRONG. I stand in total amazement as I watch person after person that know they are wrong keep spouting the same baloney. I'll tell you again, just because the pretribulation model that is presented by all these Biblical scholars is wrong.......that does not mean there will not be a pretribulation rapture. You need to look at the correct model.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Hi again my brother in Christ,

I would have to disagree because I have actually brought up *bible verses* which refutes the Pre-Trib view. If you feel as if none of those texts I cited in any way refutes the Pre-Trib Rapture view, then please explain why do you believe this is such. From what I've gleaned from studying Scripture to understand its precise meaning and context, is that I am always open to correction if I can be shown with Crystal Clarity that I am incorrect in my position. I have also learned that if someone already has their mind "made up", then there is very little chance in attempting to prove that they are "incorrect" about a certain biblical teaching or doctrine; or to get them to change their view -- especially if they held their view for such a long period of time. This causes much trouble when one is attempting to study themselves approved as a workman approved by God who rightly handles the Word of Truth (cf. Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 2:15). However, if such a person is OPEN to the possibility that they MAY be incorrect in their theological position, then this leaves room for improvement and growth in their understanding of Scripture.

Most reputable and revered bible teachers and scholars almost NEVER switch their view on a particular biblical doctrine even if they are CLEARLY shown to be in error. I think this comes about as a result of pride; and that they "fear" that those who have entrusted in them to be their source of correct biblical doctrine will feel "let down" because of this. Btw, I am not saying that such is the case with you. I am just giving an example of why some bible students refuse to be corrected in their view of Scripture. This sort of mentality will "stunt" their understanding of biblical Truth's and their accuracy because they refuse to submit to correction. As I said just above: I am ALWAYS open to rebuke and correction if I can be shown with Crystal Clarity using hermeneutics and eisegesis that my particular view and understanding of Scripture that I hold to is indeed in error. I will do some more study and research on your first reply to my topic and get back to you when I have the time.

God Bless!

All that I ask is that you (yes you) because you do seem to show interest, study the resurrection of the just.
Let us focus on that first .
Then we can continue to discuss this topic.
I understand that it may not be this evening, but sometime within a reasonable zone.
I as well as you are willing to learn if the opportunity presents itself.
Pride and contention shall not be present from me .
I have put much time, study , and prayer to have complete peace with what I believe The Word of God teaches regarding this highly controversial topic.
Let me know what think about my earlier post about the resurrection of the just.
Thank you friend.

Peace in our Saviours name.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Thank you for sharing the link to your study refuting the Pre-Tribulation Rapture View. Some Pre-Tribbers use the argument that the church is not found during the Tribulation; but the bible clearly states that there are saints (Grk. "hagiazo") during the Tribulation Period.

Yes there are saints during the tribultation period but it is certainly not the church. God has promised to turn his attention to Israel after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Then we see that God says how much more their fullness will be as compared to the Gentiles. This is why you have 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. This is a guarantee of a future harvest of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth.
Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came OUT OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:9,14)"

You probably should consider these verses:
Rev 5
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
We have 24 elders before the throne. How did they get there? When did they get there? What do they say? for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
We know that the 24 elders did not come out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; They are speaking for those that are with them. There is a group in heaven that are there before any seals are opened. The 1st 6 seals are the tribulation. The 7th seal begins the wrath of God.

They are not kept OUT of the Great Tribulation, but rather they are kept FROM the Wrath of God which is poured out during the Great Tribulation (cf. Rev. 7:1-8; 9:4).

You're right.......there are people in the tribulation that are kept from the wrath of God. They are not the church.......as the church is already raptured. We see them in heaven in Rev 5.

Those with the "seal of God in their foreheads" will be protected during the Tribulation from the judgments which are poured out upon the unbelieving world.

That's what is commonly taught. 1st Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. 2nd you might study up on the great multitude.

The words "keep from" (tereo ek) in the Greek mentioned in Revelation 3:10 implies protection "from" and not "out of" -- and this is used elsewhere in Scripture to prove this point.

No.......it means keep from not go through and protect. The protection happens to the remnant of Israel, not the church.

I think that most Pre-Tribber's shouldn't be so concerned about this so much as that they should just live a life worthy unto the Lord. To be faithful to stay on the straight and narrow, and to not deviate to the right or to the left. In doing so . . . they will not be caught "off-guard" regardless of when the timing of the Rapture will occur (cf. Matt. 24:42-44; 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Pet. 3:10; Rev. 16:15; 22:12).

!

I understand that you think that you know, but you don't. The reason that you think that you know is that you can prove that the pretriblation model that is commonly presented is wrong. That does not mean that there will not be a pretribulation rapture. Do you understand the feasts of Israel? Do you understand that God is going to turn His attention to his ELECT?

I believe I can use scripture to refute any argument that there will not be a pretribulation rapture.
Things you've never heard before..............

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Thank you.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes there will be saints during the tribulation period because multitudes come to Christ as Saviour during that time.
That however does not refute that the Church (Bride) will be removed before God's divine judgment comes upon a rebellious and rejecting world.

Those that are sealed that you speak of are the 144,000 sons of Israel.
12,000 from each 12 tribes.
They will be divinely sealed and protected by God.
They will evangelize during the tribulation.
One cannot state that God keeps all the tribulation saints safe during that time time because many will be beheaded for their testimony and refusal to worship the Anti-Christ .

And regardless of what any believer view(s) are regarding the end times prophecy , they/we should always live a life accepting unto the Lord.

I have said this countless times and will continue to do so and that is most people have a misunderstanding about the resurrection for the just.
The resurrection for the just happens only one time for the just , but in stages.
Unlike the resurrection for the unjust also only one time , but not in stages.
If one cannot grasp this truth then they will be misguided regarding the truths and order of events during the end of times.

It is one if not the biggest stumbling block for many who study this topic .
The other would be that people don't realize that the removal of the Church before the 7 year tribulation and The Second Coming of Christ are two DISTINCT and SEPARATE events.

The Second Coming of Christ, He literally sets foot upon the Mount of Olives.
The removal of the Church , believers meet the Lord in the clouds/air.

Two seperate and distinct events.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The Church is made up of those individuals who have placed their faith in Christ.

A person cannot place their faith in Christ during the tribulation period and not be a member of the Church.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

The term "tribulation saints" is not found in the Bible.
It was made up by pretribbers, to make their doctrine work.

.

 

[jgr]

Do you understand that God is going to turn His attention to his ELECT?

Here they are.

God's been eminently attentive to His ELECT His CHURCH since the Day of Pentecost.


Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.