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Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
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LOL, you might want to check the context on some of those. Meanwhile.............
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 65
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
 
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jgr

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Israel was comprised of two groups, the faithful and obedient, and the unfaithful and disobedient.

The latter invariably ended up dead. (Hebrews 10:28)

Who were the elect?
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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HI I disagree that either view is dangerous. Pretribers do look hoping for the LORD to come and take them away. But every pre trib preacher I have seen is all about occupying until the LORD comes and not being to attached to this world but to share the gospel now urgently. So if this position produces sanctification and urgency and holds to the true gospel its no big deal. I believe it and in the millennium of which there is much more verses about. Those who see a future point of view tend to support Israel and see things playing out in a specific order. Those who hold your view and hold a solid gospel I have no problem with.
 
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Neogaia777

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Your forgetting one, "mid-trib" which is the one I favor right now... mid-trib for the saints, and what will be or seem to be like pre-trib for the rest of the world that are not God's that will be left-behind, after the middle of the great tribulation period for the saints... What will then be and begin a great tribulation period for the ones of the world now, but/and because the others will be caught up to be with the Lord in an instant, then to return after that tribulation period back with them (The saints with The Lord/God/the Angels) who (saints) were caught up/taken out, to be with Him (God), will all "come back" when the "smoke settles and the dust clears" so to speak... 3 1/2 years of peace for the world, followed by 3 1/2 years of quite the opposite, to put it mildly, for the world, but 7 years, or the beginning 3 1/2, of "hell" for the saints...

Were not there yet BTW, it hasn't begun yet, not even for the saints yet, but it will... When everyone who kills you will think they are doing God a service, ect... Not to mention all the other torment mentally, emotionally the true saints will be going through that none of the people of the world will...

But, then, when the smoke settles and the dust clears, they return with the raptured saints/angels, ect to set up their (God's) Kingdom, ect, 1,000 year reign, age of Christ, on earth, ect...

There will be only a small remnant left from the people of the world that were left behind, and they will be joined together with them (all) (but on earth) at that time...

Then the Kingdom age will begin...

God Bless!
 
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Choose Wisely

Forgiven
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Israel was comprised of two groups, the faithful and obedient, and the unfaithful and disobedient.

The latter invariably ended up dead. (Hebrews 10:28)

Who were the elect?
I know this is a trick question. Is a DNA sample required?
 
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Neogaia777

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Two people will be doing this or that, one be taken (disappear) and the other left behind, ect, it's (Jesus) also likened to Lot in Sodom and Noah and the Ark, ect, and how they were saved, and how and because of, and due to, mainly one Man (Christ in this last case) some will be saved or raptured at a certain point "mid trib" for them I would say... Saved and spared from the wrath of God that will be the beginning of the real tribulation period for the world at that point... Or for the Devil and his people...

God Bless!
 
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Alithis

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havnt watched the vid linked.
but iv read thessaloians often ,so no need .
its sovery clear
 
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Alithis

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2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
interesting that people get a bit hung up on the word elect... its equally translated as choice. your calling and choice.

many are called few are chosen ...
same meaning
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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John the Revelator was himself already in the tribulation period, as are you and I.

Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. NASU
 
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Neogaia777

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Maybe, but there not killing us in America yet... And the world's time of peace, (and it will be the world, or most of it) will be built on taking the mark of the beast (new financial system many think), and by really persecuting believers, even killing them, will be very much hated, and not even tolerated anymore, ect... Temple in Jerusalem has to be rebuilt, ect, Anti-Christ has to come on the scene, ect...

That's why I don't know if were really quite there yet or not...?

But, it does kinda feel like it or can feel like it mentally and emotionally sometimes though... But, I'm hoping that's just me...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Now maybe at the first half, during the period of peace, they leave Israel alone, for the most part maybe, or maybe even protect her and defend her, (Temple gets rebuilt) but not after the rapture, or the last half, if she is still here, then they will all, nearly all of them turn on her and will want to destroy and obliterate her maybe...?

Will God be acting even during that time and will He act for Israel then, and are they going to be the remnant maybe...? IDK...? Possible I guess...

God Bless!
 
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Oldmantook

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You are correct. The Church at Philadelphia will be protected at that "hour" (Rev 3:10). Of the 7 churches, these are the worthy saints whom God promises protection during the tribulation as you have stated. It stands to reason then that if that "hour" can be approximated, then we can determine a timeline of events. The book of Revelation interprets itself as the "hour" is later referred to in Rev 14:7,15; Rev 17:12; Rev 18:10,17,19. These verses place the "hour" when Babylon and God's enemies are destroyed at Jesus' Second Coming. Those faithful saints who persevere during the tribulation will be protected at that "hour." At that time, Jesus stated that he will come as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon in Rev 16:15-16 and not before the tribulation as pre-tribbers believe.
 
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Neogaia777

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So they could decide to all turn on her right before or before the rapture then...? (prior post)...

But, not all will be raptured, and I think not many will be of Israel if they are to be the remnant in the end, and if maybe God wants to prove himself to them in a way maybe or something, IDK... But, whatever it is, at first they might reject Christ, but by the end they will be more than ready to accept Him, I would think, if that were to happen... Grafted back in afterward... Teachers of us after that...

God Bless!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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We are told to watch and pray so that we may be accounted worthy so as to escape all these end times things that are mentioned in the Olivet discourse.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (See Luke 21:36).

What would all these things include that Jesus just talked about?

Luke 21:
10 "Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven."

2nd seal: Wars (Peace taken from the Earth) (See Revelation 6:3-4). This lines up with nation rising against nation in Luke 21:10.

3rd seal: Famine (Revelation 6:5-6) This lines up with the famine mentioned in Luke 21:11.

Jesus said we can watch and pray so that we may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21:36).

"And unto... the church in Thyatira... And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." ~ (Revelation 2:18, 21-22).

How else would an entire church miss out on the great tribulation if they are not Raptured? Will God kill them instead?

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

To put it to you another way, Paul believed in looking for the imminent return of His Savior Jesus Christ. If Paul believed he would have had to go thru the tribulation, he would not have said this.

At the 1st rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage:

Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

In the 2nd Rapture, in the midpoint of the Tribulation, He is returning from a wedding:

Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

We are told that we are to watch, for we do not know what day or hour He is coming; In fact, we are told that He is coming in a time that we think not. This makes no sense in the Post Trib view Rapture because you will know when He is coming. You will be able to do a countdown of all the signs taking place. Demons coming out of the ground.... "Check" .... Blood red seas..... "Check" A period of darkness.... "Check." So yeah. No need to watch. Just look at the obvious signs and you will know His coming.

Side Note:

Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. The Raptures are a spiritual body type resurrection. We shall be like the angels in the Rapture. The physical flesh and blood body resurrection is different and comes later in two phases, as well.
 
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Oldmantook

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Don't know about who will or will not turn on Israel as that would just be speculation on my part. I know that God supports Israel but I am suspicious of Zionists as the two are not the same but that is another story.
 
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Neogaia777

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Don't know about who will or will not turn on Israel as that would just be speculation on my part. I know that God supports Israel but I am suspicious of Zionists as the two are not the same but that is another story.
I'm only speculating about the part about Israel as well or anyway as well... But not about a rapture that will be mid trib for those ones at that time...

God Bless!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The problem is that you have the most to lose by not believing in a Pre-Trib Rapture. If you had a chance to miss out on the Tribulation and go to be with your Lord and be counted as faithful, why would you not want that? I think some (not all) feel like they have to go through the Tribulation because they have a persecution complex or something. They may feel like they are trying to atone for something in their past life. So they feel like they must go through the Tribulation. Granted, I am not saying all Post Tribbers think this way, but I imagine some do, though.

Another problem I see with the Post Trib View (or denying a Pre-Trib Rapture) is that it leads a person to think that they have to stockpile or prepare for the end times. They will be focusing on putting their trust in carnal or material things instead of trusting in Christ. Jesus says take no thought for tomorrow. Jesus says seek first the kingdom of God and all these things (your basic needs) will be added unto you.
 
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If I am wrong about the Pre-Trib Rapture, the worst that will happen is that I will be like, "Okay, I was wrong and it is time for me to re-think my view on Eschatology." Those who will lose their faith over something like this are not really grounded or rooted deeply in God's Word. Saints today realize that they can be persecuted even today. In fact, all who live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
 
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Neogaia777

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If there is a tribulation right now, I am being protected and shielded from it by God right now, only after having gone through some things now though myself, which I am very grateful for...

And I guess I've just never heard of two raptures, then a return later, or what...?

Could you maybe explain that a bit maybe...?

God Bless!
 
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