Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[Dwylcs]

""""""

How do you see life as being unfair?

Just to qualify my question.
I absolutely agree with you about life being unfair, I was just wanting to hear your perspective on the issue.

This point lies at the very core for the reason, and justice of the rapture.


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[Bro in Christ]

Paul the apostle and steward of this dispensation was killed for his work

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

In the detached sense: Say a father foolishly sows seeds of corruption in his impressionable offspring.



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Exactly!

 

[Dwylcs]

Exactly!

I agree.
If you follow this through one gets a clearer picture of the unfairness of our lot on this earth, which Bro in Christ alluded to.

We had not choice in the following: the era we're born into, sinful flesh, gender, family we're born into, nationality, appearance, early formative influences, including religious training - in fact hundreds of factors which we had no say in.
Yet the angels, fallen or not had an infinitely greater start than we did.
Hence the mercy which will be poured out to all earth dwellers.

We are subject to this vanity not willingly for the purpose of this mercy.


Can you think of other things we had no choice in?



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[Dwylcs]

Paul the apostle and steward of this dispensation was killed for his work

Indeed! That gets one thinking about others as well.


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[Handmaid for Jesus]

I agree.
If you follow this through one gets a clearer picture of the unfairness of our lot on this earth, which Bro in Christ alluded to.

We had not choice in the following: the era we're born into, sinful flesh, gender, family we're born into, nationality, appearance, early formative influences, including religious training - in fact hundreds of factors which we had no say in.
Yet the angels, fallen or not had an infinitely greater start than we did.
Hence the mercy which will be poured out to all earth dwellers.

We are subject to this vanity not willingly for the purpose of this mercy.


Can you think of other things we had no choice in?



…

Thie is a pre-trib thread. I refuse to discuss other theology subjects here. This post, and this train of thought is not discussing the pre-trib rapture, so I suggest you ask these questions in General Theology Forum. You are off subject brother.This safe house thread is especially for pre-tribulation discussion.

 

[Dwylcs]

Thie is a pre-trib thread. I refuse to discuss other theology subjects here. This post, and this train of thought is not discussing the pre-trib rapture, so I suggest you ask these questions in General Theology Forum. You are off subject brother.This safe house thread is especially for pre-tribulation discussion.

Please read post 261
"This point lies at the very core for the reason, and justice of the rapture."
This is the case I am building based upon our unfortunate start.

Do you care to continue?

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[dfw69]

A Concluding Review:

The Harpazo
by Chuck Missler
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PURSUE THIS TOPIC:
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Ruth and Esther
ARTICLES
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The Wedding Model
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Concluding our brief series of articles on our "Blessed Hope," 1 there would seem to be seven harpzs ("raptures") in the Bible: Enoch,2 Elijah,3 Philip, 4 Paul,5 John6 and Jesus,7 and, of course, the Body of Christ, 8 the Church. (In fact, the very Greek term, harpoz, is employed in four of these references.9)

Since Paul highlights that the mystery of the Church was his privilege to reveal in the New Testament,10 it is fashionable to assume that it would be futile to expect any references to the Rapture of the Church in the Old Testament. However, here are some provocative passages for your personal consideration:

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. -Isaiah 26:19-21

Who are to enter which chambers? How long are they to be hidden? (Compare this with John 14:1-3 and come to your own conclusions.)

And there are others:

Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. - Zephaniah 2:3

For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. -Psalm 27:5

But to me, the most provocative are the consistent patterns - or "types," metaphors, and similes - in the Old Testament:

Pattern is Prologue

It is interesting to notice the patterns that seem to be suggested in the Biblical text. One of the greatest judgments on the Planet Earth was, of course, the flood during the days of Noah. It is obvious that there were three groups of people facing that judgment:

1) Those that perished in the Flood;
2) Those who were preserved through the Flood, by means of the ark; and
3) Those who were removed prior to the Flood, namely, Enoch.11 (It can be argued that he was only one person, but so is the Church!12 It was G. H. Pember who first suggested that Revelation 12:5 might be a reference to the Church.)

Enoch is, for many reasons, one of the most intriguing characters in the Old Testament. There are also several provocative Jewish traditions regarding Enoch. He is regarded as having been born on the day the Jews observe Hag Shavout, the Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost. What is also interesting is that, by tradition, he is also believed to have been "translated" (or "raptured") on his birthday. Since the Church was "born" on this day,13 one wonders if we, too, will be "raptured" on its birthday!14

(As some pre-tribbers love to point out, Enoch wasn't "mid-flood" or "post-flood," he was "pre-flood.")

We all have enjoyed the famous confrontation between Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3. Many prophecy buffs view Nebuchadnezzar and the forced worship of his image as a "type" of the Antichrist, and the three Jewish young men as a foreshadowing of the 144,000 miraculously preserved through the "furnace" of the tribulation. That leaves a provocative question: Where was Daniel himself? Who might he represent as a type?

Some prophecy buffs see the use of a threshing floor as an idiom alluding to the tribulation.15 The marvelous romance of Ruth, who becomes the Gentile bride of Boaz, her Kinsman-Redeemer, is seen as an anticipatory type of the Church and her Redeemer. In the critical threshing floor scene in chapter 3, where is Ruth? At the feet of her Redeemer.16 Interesting.

In Genesis 22, Abraham left the donkey and the two young men at the foot of the hill as he and Isaac went up to the top of Moriah for the famous offering of his son. After the episode concludes with the substitution of the ram, it lists those that then returned to Beersheba:

So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
Genesis 22:19

Where's Isaac? Obviously, Isaac also returned with Abraham and the two young men. But we are fascinated that the Holy Spirit appears to have edited the person of Isaac out of the record from the time he was offered until he is united with his bride two chapters later!17 We believe this was deliberate to have the narrative fully conform to the type.

One, of course, should not build doctrine from "types," metaphors, or similitudes. But we feel they can be instructive and illuminating.

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. -Romans 15:4

I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. - Hosea 12:10

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2 Timothy 2:

This article was originally published in the
February 2003 Personal Update NewsJournal.

 

[1Timothy316]

Hello, the following quote is all BibleWriter's original work. I take no credit for this post but wanted to share one of BibleWriter's good posts.

OK, let's see what was said by the very earliest Christian writer who said about the rapture.

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1) This is thought to have been written between the years 186 and 188.

We need to notice the following elements in this short statement:

First, the church will be "suddenly caught up."

Second, after the church is "Suddenly caught up," "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Lest anyone claim that this is not specifically stated to be after “the church is "suddenly caught up," please note that the grammatical construction (when) -- (one event takes place) -- (a second event takes place) has two possible meanings. It either means that the two events will take place at the same time or it means that the second event will take place after the first event. But it cannot mean that the second event takes place before the first event. In this case the first event is clearly instantaneous and the second event will obviously consume a significant period of time. So it is unreasonable to argue that the writer’s intention was anything other than to state that this “tribulation” would take place after the church is “suddenly caught up.”

Third, this period of tribulation is specifically called "the last contest of the righteous." and it explicitly says of these righteous in this particular contest, "in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

So this statement clearly teaches that the rapture will occur before the great tribulation.

One of the doctrines of dispensationalism is that, after the church is "suddenly caught up," there will be a righteous remnant that will undergo a great trial of faith, and that, when they triumph in this trial, they will be crowned with righteousness. Many dispensationalists differentiate between the “tribulation” (the entire seven year period) and the “great tribulation” (the last three and half years.) This appears to be the position held by Irenaeus.

There is also other evidence of similar doctrine having been taught in ancient times. Among these we find the following statement by John of Crysostem which is thought to have been written sometime between the years 395 and 407.

“2 Thessalonians ii. 6–9
“‘And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of His mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of His coming: even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan.’
“One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him.” (Homilies on 2 Thessalonians, Homily IV, by John Chrysostom, Volume XIII of “Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers,” series 2, as translated by James Tweed and edited by Philip Schaff, as found in the American edition edited by Phillip Schaff , and as found online at [link removed]

Although it is strangely stated, this appears to be a saying that some in the day of John of Crysostom were saying that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is the Holy Spirit. As this is one of the key elements of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, this appears to be evidence that some were teaching this doctrine around the beginning of the fifth century. This is all the more important historically, because the man who mentioned it did not himself believe this doctrine.

So there is indeed evidence that the very earliest written Christian doctrine on the timing of the rapture put it before, not after, the great tribulation, and other exceedingly ancient writings suggest that the doctrine was still being taught in the fourth century, during the time of John of Crysostom. (C 347-407)

Although it is strangely stated, this appears to be a saying that some in the day of John of Crysostom were saying that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is the Holy Spirit. As this is one of the key elements of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, this appears to be evidence that some were teaching this doctrine around the beginning of the fifth century. This is all the more important historically, because the man who mentioned it did not himself believe this doctrine.

But in addition to these critically important very early comments, we have absolute proof that the claim that the church had always taught the doctrine of the post tribulation rapture before a few hundred years ago is completely incorrect. This proof is found in a document, whose age and author is unknown, but which is known to have been in Church libraries before the year 800. Based on events referred to in this document as impending, various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 373 to as late as 627. As scholars do not believe the unknown author could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian, (who is also known as Ephraem of Nisbis) they call this unknown author Pseudo-Ephraem. This document says,

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2.)



These three truly ancient statements are evidence that the post tribulation rapture was not the original doctrine of the church, and are conclusive proof that the claim that the church had always taught the post tribulation rapture until a few hundred years ago is completely incorrect.

 

[Biblewriter]

Hello, the following quote is all BibleWriter's original work. I take no credit for this post but wanted to share one of BibleWriter's good posts.

Somehow, one paragraph got repeated in the post you quoted.

 

[IvinViljoen]

Can we ascertain what exactly is pre-tribulation rapture is? Is it the taking away of believers before the earths judgement?

 

[dysert]

Can we ascertain what exactly is pre-tribulation rapture is? Is it the taking away of believers before the earths judgement?

That's exactly what it is. There's coming a time when God will execute His judgment on the earth for the 7-year tribulation. Most of Revelation details the judgments that He levels, starting with the Seals, Trumpets, and finally Bowls (or Vials). Before the judgments start, though, He calls to heaven those who are His (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

 

[IvinViljoen]

That's exactly what it is. There's coming a time when God will execute His judgment on the earth for the 7-year tribulation. Most of Revelation details the judgments that He levels, starting with the Seals, Trumpets, and finally Bowls (or Vials). Before the judgments start, though, He calls to heaven those who are His (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Thanks. Now I know the parameters of this thread.

 

[Maon]

No true learning takes place without the exchange of ideas.

 

[dysert]

No true learning takes place without the exchange of ideas.

I don't think that's true. I didn't learn calculus by exchanging ideas with my professors. I learned it by having someone who knew it teach it to me.

And besides, this is a Safe House thread. Exchanging ideas that aren't pre-trib is not encouraged.

 

[Maon]

I don't think that's true. I didn't learn calculus by exchanging ideas with my professors. I learned it by having someone who knew it teach it to me.

And besides, this is a Safe House thread. Exchanging ideas that aren't pre-trib is not encouraged.

*********
Sorry, its not my intent to show disrespect. But we did exchange ideas, and I have learned. Thank you.

 

[Echolipse]

I don't post very often, I more just read random posts to see different people's opinions and theories.

But I'm beginning my own in depth research and study on Eschatology so I can come up with my own thoughts and beliefs of the Lord 2nd coming.

I am interested in any articles that yall can send me or books that I can read to study and read over. I've already collected a few websites and I have a few books, and study bibles (yes I have a Dake's).

At the end of my research I'll be noting what I don't believe will happen and what will occur. I'm thinking about making it a thesis or a theory paper. And no, I'm not a theology student at this time.

Thanks for your time and anything yall send me.

 

[Biblewriter]

I don't post very often, I more just read random posts to see different people's opinions and theories.

But I'm beginning my own in depth research and study on Eschatology so I can come up with my own thoughts and beliefs of the Lord 2nd coming.

I am interested in any articles that yall can send me or books that I can read to study and read over. I've already collected a few websites and I have a few books, and study bibles (yes I have a Dake's).

At the end of my research I'll be noting what I don't believe will happen and what will occur. I'm thinking about making it a thesis or a theory paper. And no, I'm not a theology student at this time.

Thanks for your time and anything yall send me.

I just posted an important thread titled "The Restoration of Israel, as Described in the Holy Scriptures," at:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7737854-4/

Others I have written can be found at:

The neglected character in end time prophecy
http://www.christianforums.com/t6571768-4/

The End Time King of Judah
http://www.christianforums.com/t7585242-5/

Who will be in the land during Daniel’s seventieth week?
http://www.christianforums.com/t6429517-19/

The True Meaning of Romans 9-11
http://www.christianforums.com/t7716736/#post62199250

Maps drawn by Biblewriter
http://www.christianforums.com/t6934023-2/

 

[Echolipse]

@Biblewriter

Thanks, I'll take a look at these and read them when i get the chance. Couldn't quote due to I don't have enough posts to quote links.

 

[bibletruth469]

I have studied the feasts of Israel in depth. My main post is found on the end times forum ( debate forum ) I have a good reference book on the subject called" the Feasts of the Lord " by Kevin Howard and Marvin Rosenthal . My post is called " the feasts of Israel" .so far, I've only covered the first 3 and part of Pentecost . I will be posting on the remaining 3 soon which include trumpets , atonement , and tabernacles . The 1 st 3 feasts relate to Jesus 1 st coming and the middle one, birth of the church and the harvest, last 3 feasts relate to Jesus second coming. Be looking for thus post soon. God Bless