pre-trib

[A Brother In Christ]

gal 3:28... key verse

church are neith Jews or gentiles

 

[yeshuasavedme]

gal 3:28... key verse

church are neith Jews or gentiles

The one spirit called Adam is not Jew, Gentile, male or female.
Genesis 5:2; Malachi 3:15.
In Adam there are Jews, Gentiles, males, females.
The One Spirit called Christ is not Jew, Gentile, male, or female.
In Christ there are Jews, Gentiles, males and females.

Gender and family distinctions are individually expressed in Adam and in Christ.
The Spirit dwells in the flesh and in the family distinctions.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jesus, for a reason had this scripture in rev 16:15 placed right there.
Not to confuse anyone, but as always -a call to stand firm .


Peter rebuked Jesus for the trib that he would suffer.
"This shall not be" was Peters response.
Jesus rebuked him-in the strongest possible terms.
I rebuke you for thinking the same.
A servant is not greater than his master, if they persecuted me they will persecute you.....and this meant death for all of them didnt it.

How could the Church preach pre trib, when all they got was tribulation.

The Church never gets Wrath poured out on them which is poured out on all the inhabitants of the earth.

 

[timlamb]

Look up the definitions of tribulation and wrath and then realize that God brought his wrath upon Egypt but Israel was still there. God keep them in the time of trouble as He will the church even to death as Daniel and his friends understood and stood on. I don't know who sold this bill of goods but the proceeds are rotten.

Hismessenger

Can we keep this to a civilized discussion? This is not a requirement for salvation. Those who get it wrong are not doomed to torment. But God does promise that the church/body/bride will not endure the wrath. A wrath which is clearly spelled out in Revelation Chapter 15 and 16.

We don't need rebukes for those who disagree.

I am still looking for a solid explaination of why Jesus would use, as an image for prophecy, the description, "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.....on that night, two people will be in one bed: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

Could this happen while the demons gather kings together for the battle of Armageddon?
While Jesus is riding out of heaven with the sword and iron rod treading the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty?
During the thousand year reign of Christ?

I say it is pre-tribulation, I'm still looking for a post tribber, or even a mid tribber to show me different thoughts that work biblically and so, prophetically.

 

[Hismessenger]

The reason for this is found in Rev22:11. The church is still here. How much simpler can it be.

Hismessenger

 

[A Brother In Christ]

?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

The one spirit called Adam is not Jew, Gentile, male or female.
Genesis 5:2; Malachi 3:15.
In Adam there are Jews, Gentiles, males, females.
The One Spirit called Christ is not Jew, Gentile, male, or female.

Yes all are sinner in Adam

In Christ there are Jews, Gentiles, males and females.

There is no more social, gender, religious difference since those are earthly differences

In Heaven none of those things exist

Gender and family distinctions are individually expressed in Adam and in Christ.
The Spirit dwells in the flesh and in the family distinctions.

?

Yet in Christ who is in heaven none of these things exist

 

[Hismessenger]

If the church is coming back with Christ at His second coming, why is there not one scripture that shows this fact. Most of the scriptures of His coming show a gathering or harvest of the earth at that time and the verses from Thess only serve to reinforce this. It doesn't show anyone with Him but His angels and He raptures the church out at that point. The end of the world. This is also confirmed by Revelation 22:11. The just and the unjust are still side by side. The parable of the nets is also confirmation and a rebutal of the pretrib doctrine from Matt 13.

Hismessenger

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yes all are sinner in Adam There is no more social, gender, religious difference since those are earthly differences

In Heaven none of those things exist

?

Yet in Christ who is in heaven none of these things exist

In the one old man, the Adam spirit, there is no gender or ethnic differences, but the bodies of human flesh are male, female, Jews and Gentiles.
In the One New Man there is no gender or ethnic differences, but the bodies of New Man human flesh will always be their own selves, male, female, Jews or Gentiles, though there will be no marrying or giving in marraige iin the bodies of regeneration.

Jesus is in His body of New Man flesh forever, and He is male, and a Jew.

Jesus says all who do the will of the Father [believe on His Son's name] are all equally His 'sister, brother, mother', for in Christ there is One Spirit as there is one spirit in Adam.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Can we keep this to a civilized discussion? This is not a requirement for salvation. Those who get it wrong are not doomed to torment. But God does promise that the church/body/bride will not endure the wrath. A wrath which is clearly spelled out in Revelation Chapter 15 and 16.

We don't need rebukes for those who disagree.

I am still looking for a solid explaination of why Jesus would use, as an image for prophecy, the description, "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.....on that night, two people will be in one bed: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

Could this happen while the demons gather kings together for the battle of Armageddon?
While Jesus is riding out of heaven with the sword and iron rod treading the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty?
During the thousand year reign of Christ?

I say it is pre-tribulation, I'm still looking for a post tribber, or even a mid tribber to show me different thoughts that work biblically and so, prophetically.

Tim,
The one taken and one left scenario is for Jews in Israel at that time, before the great destruction of Jerusalem, and those people are not changed in the twinkling of an eye and they do not rise to meet the LORD in the air in regenerated bodies.
That last half of the tribulation is so bad that no man can work -angels preach the everlasting Gospel from the air.

Before the seven years begins, or at the beginning of it, the LORD gives the call to gather His people from heaven and earth to Him in the air, off earth, so He can avenge them on the inhabitants of the world, the dead bodies rise up from the ground first, of the Saints He brings with Him in the air, and then we who are alive and remain are ‘harpazo =laqach’ to meet them in the air.

and Isaiah 26:19-21 shows what comes next -we go in, shut our doors, and celebrate for seven days [as taught in the living oracles, in Leviticus 8], our consecration as priests unto Him.

We aren’t taken hold of by angels as Lot and family were and as those mid-trib Jews are, in the nation of Israel ,who are taken by angels out of Jerusalem, to hide for the three and a half years in the wilderness.

We ascend as Jesus did, in bodies changed in the twinkling of an eye, for indwelling us is the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, Who quickens our mortal bodies and we ascend.


Then-the elect, those remaining of the seed of Jacob in the world are gathered by angels from the nations [Gentile nations] when the LORD returns on His throne of glory [after the Armaggedon battle, when He is seen over Jerusalem, defending Jerusalem]; in Ezekiel 20:33-44, they are also brought to the wilderness, where the inhabitants of Jerusalem were taken for the three and a half years to wait it out.
They are in the wilderness, at Sanai.

then the remaining Gentiles are gathered by angels and separated as sheep and goats....but the Church was not among the sheep of the Gentiles nor the Elect of Israel, for the Church was taken away before the seven years began.

Also, the Throne of Glory judgment is after the tares are dealt with by the angels, for they are no longer on earth at that time, as all the armies of the final man of sin are no longer on earth, having already been dealt with before the Throne of glory comes down to Sinai.

This is all very swift, when He returns to defend Jerusalem, destroy the armies of the man of sin, and sit on His throne of glory at Sinai, it is consumated quickly.

This is what I see and I think it makes the most sense -but if someone has a better explanation for the different scenarios with Scripture I will be glad to look at it.

 

[timlamb]

Tim,
The one taken and one left scenario is for Jews in Israel at that time, before the great destruction of Jerusalem, and those people are not changed in the twinkling of an eye and they do not rise to meet the LORD in the air in regenerated bodies.
That last half of the tribulation is so bad that no man can work -angels preach the everlasting Gospel from the air.

Before the seven years begins, or at the beginning of it, the LORD gives the call to gather His people from heaven and earth to Him in the air, off earth, so He can avenge them on the inhabitants of the world, the dead bodies rise up from the ground first, of the Saints He brings with Him in the air, and then we who are alive and remain are ‘harpazo =laqach’ to meet them in the air.

and Isaiah 26:19-21 shows what comes next -we go in, shut our doors, and celebrate for seven days [as taught in the living oracles, in Leviticus 8], our consecration as priests unto Him.

We aren’t taken hold of by angels as Lot and family were and as those mid-trib Jews are, in the nation of Israel ,who are taken by angels out of Jerusalem, to hide for the three and a half years in the wilderness.

We ascend as Jesus did, in bodies changed in the twinkling of an eye, for indwelling us is the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, Who quickens our mortal bodies and we ascend.


Then-the elect, those remaining of the seed of Jacob in the world are gathered by angels from the nations [Gentile nations] when the LORD returns on His throne of glory [after the Armaggedon battle, when He is seen over Jerusalem, defending Jerusalem]; in Ezekiel 20:33-44, they are also brought to the wilderness, where the inhabitants of Jerusalem were taken for the three and a half years to wait it out.
They are in the wilderness, at Sanai.

then the remaining Gentiles are gathered by angels and separated as sheep and goats....but the Church was not among the sheep of the Gentiles nor the Elect of Israel, for the Church was taken away before the seven years began.

Also, the Throne of Glory judgment is after the tares are dealt with by the angels, for they are no longer on earth at that time, as all the armies of the final man of sin are no longer on earth, having already been dealt with before the Throne of glory comes down to Sinai.

This is all very swift, when He returns to defend Jerusalem, destroy the armies of the man of sin, and sit on His throne of glory at Sinai, it is consumated quickly.

This is what I see and I think it makes the most sense -but if someone has a better explanation for the different scenarios with Scripture I will be glad to look at it.

OK, I think I agree but I don't understand where you were going with the 'one taken, one left behind' verses of matthew and Luke? So you don't see these as rapture prophecy? Luke 17:30-35 refers to the time of the taking as 'the day the Son of Man is revealed". There is no mention of judgement or wrath, or battles or calamity, or anything happening on the earth, sounds like rapture talk to me. What do you think?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

If the church is coming back with Christ at His second coming, why is there not one scripture that shows this fact.

Rev 19:7-8, 14 the armies is the church these verses connects with eph 5:25-27

Most of the scriptures of His coming show a gathering or harvest of the earth at that time

the 2nd harvest of three 1 cor 15:23-24

and the verses from Thess only serve to reinforce this.

number of where you are coming from please...

It doesn't show anyone with Him but His angels and He raptures the church out at that point. The end of the world. This is also confirmed by Revelation 22:11. The just and the unjust are still side by side. The parable of the nets is also confirmation and a rebutal of the pretrib doctrine from Matt 13.

Hismessenger

reason why Matt 13 is the 2nd coming and not the pretrib is that matt was before the cross ...

in 1 cor 15:51-54 rapture is a mystery

definition of a mystery... eph 3:9-10, col 1:26, romans 16:25-26

last trump ...1 thes 4:16 Trump of God not angels call us!

The church has a happy hope titus 2:13

why happy if going thru Great Trib....? can't

 

[A Brother In Christ]

In the one old man, the Adam spirit, there is no gender or ethnic differences, but the bodies of human flesh are male, female, Jews and Gentiles.
In the One New Man there is no gender or ethnic differences, but the bodies of New Man human flesh will always be their own selves, male, female, Jews or Gentiles, though there will be no marrying or giving in marraige iin the bodies of regeneration.

Jesus is in His body of New Man flesh forever, and He is male, and a Jew.

Jesus says all who do the will of the Father [believe on His Son's name] are all equally His 'sister, brother, mother', for in Christ there is One Spirit as there is one spirit in Adam.

gal 3:28 states differently.... where is your verse

 

[A Brother In Christ]

In the one old man, the Adam spirit, there is no gender or ethnic differences, but the bodies of human flesh are male, female, Jews and Gentiles.
In the One New Man there is no gender or ethnic differences, but the bodies of New Man human flesh will always be their own selves, male, female, Jews or Gentiles, though there will be no marrying or giving in marraige iin the bodies of regeneration.

Jesus is in His body of New Man flesh forever, and He is male, and a Jew.

Jesus says all who do the will of the Father [believe on His Son's name] are all equally His 'sister, brother, mother', for in Christ there is One Spirit as there is one spirit in Adam.

gal 3:28 states how God sees it....

where is your verse

 

[Zadok7000]

why happy if going thru Great Trib....? can't

Oh???

James 1:2-3
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Hour of Temptation ring a bell? Rev. 3:10
Patience of the Saints ring a bell? Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12

James 5:12-13
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Romans 12:12
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer

1Peter 4:12-13
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

How are we to be kept from those fiery darts of the devil? Ephesians 6:13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


And the words directly from our Lord in Matthew 10:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved....The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

OK, I think I agree but I don't understand where you were going with the 'one taken, one left behind' verses of matthew and Luke? So you don't see these as rapture prophecy? Luke 17:30-35 refers to the time of the taking as 'the day the Son of Man is revealed". There is no mention of judgement or wrath, or battles or calamity, or anything happening on the earth, sounds like rapture talk to me. What do you think?

I think they have time to consider if they want to go and are warned about Lot's wife, so I don't think this is the rapture, but after the rapture, and I don't think they are taken to heaven, but to a 'safe' spot in their own adamic untranslated bodies to wait out the last 31/2 years, and I think they are Jews; but I may be wrong on this point -but the Rapture happens pre-great trib, anyway one may come to understand this passage..


The Church hasn't time to think when the translation comes, "in the twinkling of an eye".

But the secrets of wisdom are double to what they are [Job 11:6], so the thief application can also apply to the pre-trib catching away of the Church in translated bodies to meet the resurrected saints in the air, before the door of the heavenly temple, where they go in and celebrate for seven days [earth time, seven years] as pr the oracles in Lev 8; Numbers 10:1-7; Isaiah 26:19-21; Psalm 50; Psalm 75;2,3. Those who are taken pre-great trib are changed immediately in their bodies to the immortal and they are 'caught up' -no going back after the garments are donned, and no desire to remain behind as Lot's wife had.

Thre are those who flee through the valley made by the earthquake, to safety, in Zechariah, and somehow this is to be figured in the end times scene, too.

The business about the eagles gathering has to be searched out from ancient [inspired] apocalyptic writings -including John's Revelation but not limited to that. Jesus knew about the "eagles gathering" [against Israel] from a source He had read.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

gal 3:28 states differently.... where is your verse

on what doctrine? the one old man, Adam, versus the One NEw Man, Christ?
All over Scripture!
New Man is One Spirit, old man is one spirit. Malachi 2:15; Genesis 5:2;
Mal 2:15
And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

One Spirit:
Jhn 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Jhn 17:20¶Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;Jhn 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The old is dead, the New is the Living Spirit, Christ, come in second human being creation flesh as brother [Israel; Isaiah 49], to Adam and therefore legal Redeemer -which word is "Kinsman".

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first human being*** [anthropos] Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam *** a quickening spirit.

1Cr 15:47
The first human being [anthropos] [is] of the earth, earthy: the second human being [anthropos] [is] the Lord [the Living Spirit] from heaven.

He is come in flesh of the second human being creation, and is the spiritual human being, in whose image Adam was made as the "tupos" of; Romans 5:14

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Here's a link to a book I read several years ago and like the attitude of the author though I study for myself.
I think anyone interseted int he subject might also be interested to read his book and take up their own study.
He has some good points which one can check for themselves about.
http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Gray/Preface.htm
his preface;

Gray-Haired Preface


First published in 1980 under the title The Pre-Tribulation Rapture, 288 pages, by Accent Books (since purchased by David C. Cook Co.), this book survived eight reprintings before going out of print. The copyright has reverted back to me so that I can make it available to you freely.
My brother, who first got me into the project, asked if I had any plans to revise the book. I thought, "If I revise the book, I might tone it down a bit, and I don't want to do that. I want my original youthful exuberance to show through." So I decided to leave the original book intact, changing only a word or two here and there. But I'm adding extra articles so that the reader can compare the views of a youth with the views of someone who has a few gray hairs. The gray-haired perspective, it turns out, is just farther down the same road that the youth embarked upon.
The Bible, after all, points in one direction. It doesn't give conflicting signals. Forty human authors? Yes, but only one divine author. So we would expect all the clues to point the same way.
Why do people arrive at different conclusions? Is it because the Bible can mean different things? Is it because the Bible is beyond our grasp? Is it because only theologians can hope to figure it out? No, no, no.
Then how do you explain the different beliefs? Here's my over-simplified analysis of the situation. Christians and their beliefs about the end times fall into three general categories: 1) Many Christians believe that Christ will return before the tribulation because they believe what good Bible teachers have told them, not through personal knowledge of the Bible, 2) Other Christians who have studied the Bible more see some problems and have come to believe that we will go through the tribulation before Christ returns, and 3) Christians who study the Bible deeper yet discover a wonderful harmony in the Bible and thank God that believers will not go through the tribulation after all.
If your Bible study has made you question pre-trib beliefs, then I'm glad. Glad because you're in the Bible. It's more important to me that you study the Bible than that you agree with me. If someone agreed with me too quickly, I'd be suspicious.
My goal is to put the Bible into your hands. Don't think it's just for theologians. It's for you. I want you to taste it, chew it, digest it. Taste its sweetness, sweeter than the honey which fills every little hole in the entire waffle on your plate....

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Oh???

James 1:2-3
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Hour of Temptation ring a bell? Rev. 3:10
Patience of the Saints ring a bell? Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12

James 5:12-13
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Romans 12:12
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer

1Peter 4:12-13
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

How are we to be kept from those fiery darts of the devil? Ephesians 6:13
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


And the words directly from our Lord in Matthew 10:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved....The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

happy and joy are different words in the greek

look it up

joy is understanding what God is doing for you within the circumstance.

Happy is glad that God is gracious and mercyful since God does not deem it nessecary for the church to go thru the Great Trib

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Rev 19:7-8, 14 the armies is the church these verses connects with eph 5:25-27


the 2nd harvest of three 1 cor 15:23-24 number of where you are coming from please...

reason why Matt 13 is the 2nd coming and not the pretrib is that matt was before the cross ...

in 1 cor 15:51-54 rapture is a mystery

definition of a mystery... eph 3:9-10, col 1:26, romans 16:25-26

last trump ...1 thes 4:16 Trump of God not angels call us!

The church has a happy hope titus 2:13

why happy if going thru Great Trib....? can't