pre-trib

[yeshuasavedme]

The tribe of Judah is only ONE of the 12.
The house/Kingdom of Judah are only TWO of the 12.
Never ever ever has the house/Kingdom of Israel (the northern 10 tribes) been called "Jewish".

I thnk you'd better read the book of Esther and check out the origins of the feast of Purim, when God delivered the Jews from the hands of their enemies.
It was not just Judah and Benjamin who were delivered and called Jews and who celebrate Purim.

 

[Hismessenger]

Brother and Tim, those scripture that you posted only serve to reinforce what I have posted from Matt:13.

eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

before salvation ..... children of wrath

1 cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be judged with the world...hebrews 12:6

1 thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...

10 whether we wake or sleep in Christian life

romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath , and make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

Who are the children of wrath? they are the tares sown by Satan.

Verse 9 speaks for itself but it doesn't give a time frame for this occurring .

How long is God willing to suffer the vessels of wrath, until the day of judgement which is when they will be harvested and remove as stated in Matt 13.

Still and all, none of the verses say that God has poured out His wrath in the tribulation. His wrath comes when He judges the world as given in Cor 11:32.the last part of the verse.

Hismessenger

 

[timlamb]

The tribe of Judah is only ONE of the 12.
The house/Kingdom of Judah are only TWO of the 12.
Never ever ever has the house/Kingdom of Israel (the northern 10 tribes) been called "Jewish".

Of what faith or background would God's chosen from the twelve tribes of Israel be?

 

[Zadok7000]

Of what faith or background would God's chosen from the twelve tribes of Israel be?

Brother, you really have to study up on this.
Judah = Judah. Israel = Israel. They are SEPARATE. They have not been together since David's time and won't be reunited until the Millennium.

 

[timlamb]

"Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sit's on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?'" Revelation 6:15-17

Now read Chapter 7 "After this..." the 144000are given the seal. "After this..." John sees the mutitude no one could count, still in heaven. And then the seventh seal...

Not the second comming yet! But the wrath has been poured out.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Brother, you really have to study up on this.
Judah = Judah. Israel = Israel. They are SEPARATE. They have not been together since David's time and won't be reunited until the Millennium.

Originally Posted by Zadok7000

The tribe of Judah is only ONE of the 12.
The house/Kingdom of Judah are only TWO of the 12.
Never ever ever has the house/Kingdom of Israel (the northern 10 tribes) been called "Jewish".

You're wrong.
Since the Dispersion all Israelites are also called Jews because of the tribe of the [chosen] Firstborn, Judah, and the faith is called Judaism -not Israelism or Levitism.
Today the Jews in Israel consider the secular leaders Israeli but not Jewish.

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=174&o=2440

Purim: The Holiday When We Became Jewish
by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg
One of the questions I frequently receive is regarding the name “Jew”. The word Jew is a derivative of the name Judah, Jacob’s fourth son; hence calling someone by this name would seemingly imply that the person is a descendant of that particular tribe. However, as is well known, Jacob bore twelve sons, all of whom are the antecedents of our great nation. Why, then, is the entire Israelite nation known as “Jews”?1
Perhaps this question can be cleared up by analyzing the very first individual to be dubbed Jew: “There was a Jewish man in Shushan the capital, whose name was Mordechai the son of Yair... a Benjaminite” (Esther 2:5). Yes, the first “Jew” was actually from the tribe of Benjamin!...

 

[Kingdom_Come]

2 thes 2:1-7 thee beast can not come till the Holy Spirit leaves with the church during the rapture

This is a commonly held belief but not supported by the very Scriptures you reference. In fact Paul says that the day of Christ cannot come until the man of sin is revealed yet popular rapture theology disputes this by saying the church must first be removed and then the man or sin, or beast, will be revealed. Read that passage in 2 Thessalonians again and focus particularly on verse 3. Paul is telling them this to ward off false doctrines that the coming of Christ has already happened and he explains that certain things must happen first or it is impossible for the day of Christ to have come.

Rev 4:10 God gives the church the crown for works done on earth .... this is right before the Great trib starts
five crown promise in Pauls writings

The problem with this type of interpretive theology is that it requires one to accept someone’s interpretation of symbols. What’s worse is that it goes against what is plainly taught in Scripture. The interpretation of what is symbolic should be made in light of what is plainly taught. Revelation 4:10 has nothing to do with a rapture.

were the disciples not Jews ... I think so ...

Were not the disciples the patriarchs of the church that Jesus was to be the foundation of? Were not they Christians? Were not they sent to preach the gospel of Christ to the world? Was the church not persecuted by the Jews as well as Roman authorities of the day? Again Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to the religion of Judaism. He was answering their questions concerning the timing of His great appearing as it concerns them and those that believe on Him. Obviously as a whole the Jews did not believe on Him. Interestingly the events and eventual promise of His second coming are a reiteration of events prophesied to the Hebrew people concerning the arrival of their Messiah. The reason is because this promise is not only to the Hebrew nation but now to the church as well.

confusing Jewish promises with Church promises?

No understanding that there is no difference. People create an artificial dichotomy here but there is none. The church was grafted into Israel and made heirs to promises made to Israel. These promises include the coming of The Messiah. This is why the second coming is spoken of in the OT such as in Daniel as well as the NT. Israel expected to one day receive Emmanuel, which interpreted is God with us. You can reference Isaiah 7:14; 9:6, Mat 1:22-23 and Daniel 7:9-10 to name a few. Many of the OT prophecies concern the same time Christians are expecting to see. This is the time when Messiah reigns. The Jews were blind and did not recognize their Messiah and He did not come the first time to crush tyranny and oppression and bring in the promised reign (Luke 19:41-44; Rom 11:25). He came first as The Lamb slain for the sins of the world. He will return as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the conqueror and ruler over all nations. He will fulfill the promises that Jews are expecting, the promise of the reign of the Messiah. Here is a quote from Rabbi Naftali Silberberg.

Maimonides writes (Laws of Kings 11:4) the criteria for identifying the messiah: "If a king will arise from the House of David, diligent in Torah study and the fulfillment of Mitzvot - of the written and Oral Law – like David his ancestor, and will compel all the Jews to go in its [the Torah's] path . . and builds the Holy Temple and gathers the Diaspora [to the land of Israel], this is certainly the Messiah."

If Jesus is the Messiah and this is what Redemption is all about -- who needs the Messiah?​

Jesus did not fulfill any of the basic duties of the Messiah.

Additionally, the Bible is replete with prophecies about the Messianic Era (see for example Isaiah 11) which were never realized.

To put it in simple words: If Jesus is the Messiah and this is what Redemption is all about -- who needs the Messiah? The Messiah I await will fulfill all the promises of world peace and global monotheism which are vividly described by the prophets.

He is referring of course to the OT promise to gather the whole house of Israel into the Promised Land and once again make Israel one nation rather than a divided nation, of which many of the tribes were scattered (Diaspora) and are prophesied to be returned (Eze 37:21-23; Hos 1; Acts 1:6). He is speaking to the clear OT promises of the reign of Christ. What they fail to recognize are the promises Christ fulfilled and the prophecies concerning His birth and death, those being the prophecies He has fulfilled (Consider Is 53 [prophecy] and Acts 8:26-35 [Philip revealing the fulfillment of that prophecy]). I say that to make a point. The Jews are expecting The Lion, not The Lamb. They are expecting the conqueror. The church now looks forward to the same expectation according to Scripture. As such we are now heirs to that promise (Gal 3:29; Heb 6:13-17). As Paul reveals in Romans 11 God has not cast away His people Israel. Rather through their blindness and their fall salvation has been extended to the gentiles and the gentiles through Christ have been added to the seed of Abraham (grafted into the tree of Israel) and made heirs to the promise. Thus it is through Israel that all the nations of the earth are blessed.

Once you begin to understand this then you can begin to understand that God did not make a new secret rapture covenant with the church but rather extended to them the promise of the resurrection that had already been given to Israel. The same hope of the resurrection that Israel expected and that the Jews expect is now the hope of the Christian as well. Prophecy in both the OT and NT are in harmony as to the appearance of the Messiah and the gathering of the elect at that time. They are in harmony with regard to the appearing of the man of sin. They are in harmony regarding the course of events leading up to His great appearing. They are in harmony because God’s word has not changed and neither have His promises.

 

[Hismessenger]

On the contrary, The wrath is being witheld until the blood is placed on the door posts.

Rev 7:3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

This isn't just talking about the physical tribe of israel.

Hismessenger

 

[Simon_Templar]

I thnk you'd better read the book of Esther and check out the origins of the feast of Purim, when God delivered the Jews from the hands of their enemies.
It was not just Judah and Benjamin who were delivered and called Jews and who celebrate Purim.

It is likely that some of the other tribes were mixed in with Judah and benjamin during the captivity, however, on the whole the northern tribes were scattered and settled in regions fairly far removed from babylon where most of the exiles of the southern kingdom were.

Most of the northern exiles were settled in the northern parts of assyria and so on, and eventually migrated out of our knowledge.

 

[Simon_Templar]

You're wrong.
Since the Dispersion all Israelites are also called Jews because of the tribe of the [chosen] Firstborn, Judah, and the faith is called Judaism -not Israelism or Levitism.
Today the Jews in Israel consider the secular leaders Israeli but not Jewish.

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=174&o=2440

The problem with this is that no significant number of the northern tribes exist within the israeli or jewish communities today.

At least as far as we know. There is no historical evidence that any more than a very few people from these tribes ever returned from exile. Those who did return from exile were almost all from Judah and Benjamin (and levites of course).

The reason the other tribes are refrenced independantly is because for the most part, no one knows where or who they are.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Is not the Millennial reign of Christ on earth the Kingdom of God? Flesh and blood shall NOT inherit it. Getting a Spiritual body at HIS Return is not a reward, it is a NECESSITY.

Again those who partake of the resurrection receive a new body and those alive are transformed. Who are these people? They are the saints of God.

People are SPIRITUALLY dead during the Millennium. See the Millennial chapters of Ezekiel to see how the Priests of Christ shall minister to the "dead" during that time. They are very much alive, but dead to the Life that is our King.

Life and death continue during the millennium. See Isaiah 65. John reveals in Revelation that the rest of the dead, the ones NOT resurrected in the first resurrection, remain dead until after the thousand years are completed. In other words they are NOT raised to life and will not spend the millennium being alive but yet mysteriously dead. The curse of death, the same physical curse of death placed on Adam and his lineage, is not removed until the end of the millennium. Thus John’s revelation is in harmony with what is prophesied in the OT as it should be.

Who do you think the dry bones are?

They are the whole house of Israel as God revealed to Ezekiel (Eze 37:11). As far as Ezekiel 44:25 goes you may want to try reading it with a more modern translation so you can understand what it is saying. (Eze 44:25 ESV) “They shall not defile themselves by going near to a dead person. However, for father or mother, for son or daughter, for brother or unmarried sister they may defile themselves”. (GNB) “A priest is not to become ritually unclean by touching a corpse, unless it is one of his parents, one of his children or a brother or an unmarried sister”. This passage isn’t difficult to understand.

There is NO mention of the "1st death". Why? Because there are NO MORE FLESH BODIES.

The first death is clearly understood to be the Adamic curse of physical death. The second death refers to gehenna. Scripture establishes this quite well. There is no reason for John to clarify something that is understood already, essentially that the first death is the physical death that all men, save very few, must die.

The "rest of the dead" are very much in Spiritual bodies throughout the Millennium. They are not allowed to approach Christ as they are unclean in their sin. If they do not repent by the end of the 1,000 years, they will die in their sins (John 8:24).

First of all John 8:24 is not speaking about the millennium but rather about the failure of the very Jews He was speaking to at that time to believe in Him as the Scriptures teach. If it’s all spiritual then what need was there for a very physical resurrection of Christ? The rest of the dead do not live but remain dead until the millennium is complete. The only ones promised to live a complete day (thousand years) are the saints who partake in the first resurrection.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

before salvation ..... children of wrath

1 cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be judged with the world...hebrews 12:6

church is dealt with right away... taken out of here ...Mystery then He deals with rest of Jacobs trouble

1 thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...

10 whether we wake or sleep in Christian life

romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath , and make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

church ..eph 5:25-27

 

[A Brother In Christ]

This is a commonly held belief but not supported by the very Scriptures you reference. In fact Paul says that the day of Christ cannot come until the man of sin is revealed yet popular rapture theology disputes this by saying the church must first be removed and then the man or sin,

2 thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together upto Him, 2 That ye be not soon be shaken in mind[why], or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man decieve you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a #1 a falling away first, and that #2 man of lawlessness be revealed, the son of perdition. dan 8:13

2 thes 2:7 Holy Spirit needs tobe out of the way...why did the H.S. come... John 14:15-26 john 15:18-27

3. Paul is telling them this to ward off false doctrines that the coming of Christ has already happened and he explains that certain things must happen first or it is impossible for the day of Christ to have come.

day of Christ[phil 1:6] ... and the day of the Lord [Isaih 13:6]are two different events

The problem with this type of interpretive theology is that it requires one to accept someone’s interpretation of symbols. What’s worse is that it goes against what is plainly taught in Scripture. The interpretation of what is symbolic should be made in light of what is plainly taught. Revelation 4:10 has nothing to do with a rapture.

The Rapture in revelations happens between rev 3:22 and rev 4:1 but I am sure you disagree
here are the verses of crown that a christian can be rewarded with...
1 thes 2:19, phil 4:1 crown of rejoicing
2 tim 4:8 crown of righteousness
James 1:12 crown of life
1 peter 5:4 crown of glory
1 cor 9:25 incorruptible crown

yet people are in heaven throwing crowns at Jesus Christ feet in Rev 4:10 which proves pretrib

Were not the disciples the patriarchs of the church that Jesus was to be the foundation of? Were not they Christians? Were not they sent to preach the gospel of Christ to the world? Was the church not persecuted by the Jews as well as Roman authorities of the day? Again Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to the religion of Judaism. He was answering their questions concerning the timing of His great appearing as it concerns them and those that believe on Him. Obviously as a whole the Jews did not believe on Him. Interestingly the events and eventual promise of His second coming are a reiteration of events prophesied to the Hebrew people concerning the arrival of their Messiah. The reason is because this promise is not only to the Hebrew nation but now to the church as well.

So why do the Jews have to wait for eternal life till the second coming [daniel 12:2] and the church recieves eternal life upon belief [1 john 5:13]

No understanding that there is no difference. People create an artificial dichotomy here but there is none. The church was grafted into Israel and made heirs to promises made to Israel.

gal 3:28 There is neither Jew or Gentile .... for ye are all one in Christ

These promises include the coming of The Messiah. This is why the second coming is spoken of in the OT such as in Daniel as well as the NT. Israel expected to one day receive Emmanuel, which interpreted is God with us. You can reference Isaiah 7:14; 9:6, Mat 1:22-23 and Daniel 7:9-10 to name a few. Many of the OT prophecies concern the same time Christians are expecting to see. This is the time when Messiah reigns. The Jews were blind and did not recognize their Messiah and He did not come the first time to crush tyranny and oppression and bring in the promised reign (Luke 19:41-44; Rom 11:25). He came first as The Lamb slain for the sins of the world. He will return as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the conqueror and ruler over all nations. He will fulfill the promises that Jews are expecting, the promise of the reign of the Messiah. Here is a quote from Rabbi Naftali Silberberg.


He is referring of course to the OT promise to gather the whole house of Israel into the Promised Land and once again make Israel one nation rather than a divided nation, of which many of the tribes were scattered (Diaspora) and are prophesied to be returned (Eze 37:21-23; Hos 1; Acts 1:6).

eph 2:11-12 gentiles was nothing

He is speaking to the clear OT promises of the reign of Christ. What they fail to recognize are the promises Christ fulfilled and the prophecies concerning His birth and death, those being the prophecies He has fulfilled (Consider Is 53 [prophecy] and Acts 8:26-35 [Philip revealing the fulfillment of that prophecy]). I say that to make a point. The Jews are expecting The Lion, not The Lamb. They are expecting the conqueror. The church now looks forward to the same expectation according to Scripture. As such we are now heirs to that promise (Gal 3:29; Heb 6:13-17). As Paul reveals in Romans 11 God has not cast away His people Israel. Rather through their blindness and their fall salvation has been extended to the gentiles and the gentiles through Christ have been added to the seed of Abraham (grafted into the tree of Israel) and made heirs to the promise. Thus it is through Israel that all the nations of the earth are blessed.

Once you begin to understand this then you can begin to understand that God did not make a new secret rapture covenant with the church but rather extended to them the promise of the resurrection that had already been given to Israel. The same hope of the resurrection that Israel expected and that the Jews expect is now the hope of the Christian as well. Prophecy in both the OT and NT are in harmony as to the appearance of the Messiah and the gathering of the elect at that time. They are in harmony with regard to the appearing of the man of sin. They are in harmony regarding the course of events leading up to His great appearing. They are in harmony because God’s word has not changed and neither have His promises.

.... Gods word .... is awesome

 

[Kingdom_Come]

3 Let no man decieve you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a #1 a falling away first, and that #2 man of lawlessness be revealed, the son of perdition.

Agreed. Paul is saying that the day of Christ will not come until there is a falling away and the son of perdition be revealed.

2 thes 2:7 Holy Spirit needs tobe out of the way...why did the H.S. come...

2 Thes 2:7 is not speaking about the church. It is speaking about that which holds order and keeps this evil from being fully unleashed. When it is the world will see the time of trouble such as has never been nor will ever be again.

day of Christ[phil 1:6] ... and the day of the Lord [Isaih 13:6]are two different events

Not so. Christ is Lord. Thus the day of The Lord is the day of Christ. It is a day both terrible and glorious. I am aware of no Scripture which differentiates the two.

The Rapture in revelations happens between rev 3:22 and rev 4:1 but I am sure you disagree

You are right. I do disagree. Revelation speaks nothing of a pre-trib rapture. In fact you cannot find anywhere in Scripture which clearly delineates the order of prophetic events and includes a rapture before anything, then a tribulation period and finally the second coming (which would actually be the third) in which The Lord again gathers His elect and resurrects the dead again, after having done so in a secret rapture. This would essentially equal three resurrections yet Scripture only gives an account of two. We know that Jesus places His appearance and the gathering of His elect after the revelation of the abomination of desolation. We know that He says the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Him coming in the clouds with power and glory and that at that time His elect will be gathered. I am aware of no one who disagrees this is speaking about the second coming and of course this event is prophesied of in the OT. John says a second resurrection will happen at the end of the millennium. If there is also to be a secret rapture in which the dead in Christ rise and the living are changed then this will in effect be a third resurrection. Yet Scripture does not give an account of this.

yet people are in heaven throwing crowns at Jesus Christ feet in Rev 4:10 which proves pretrib

Who are the ones throwing these crowns? No I am afraid this does not prove pre-trib.

So why do the Jews have to wait for eternal life till the second coming [daniel 12:2] and the church recieves eternal life upon belief [1 john 5:13]

The church becomes heirs to the promise when they believe and obey the gospel. There is still the day of fulfillment when they will partake in the resurrection. Paul discusses this in 1 Corinthians 15. (1Co 15:22-23) “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” Those that are in Christ shall be made alive (resurrected) at His coming. This is the promise we are to comfort one another with.

gal 3:28 There is neither Jew or Gentile .... for ye are all one in Christ

Indeed, now do you suppose there is a contradiction in Scripture?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Paul is making a distinction between the gentiles that have become part of the church and natural Israel. Paul is reminding them that God has not forsaken Israel or abandoned them or forgotten His promises to them.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

The Jews were blind to the truth of The Messiah. Why did this happen?

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Through their blindness and refusal to accept The Messiah salvation came to the gentiles. Now Paul goes on to speak about the olive tree which represents Israel. In Romans 11:16-24 Paul explains to the gentiles, the wild olive tree, here that they have been grafted into the good olive tree, Israel, and that other branches have been cut off. The branches he is referring to are the disobedient and unfaithful branches of Israel which God allowed to be scattered.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

He goes on to caution the gentiles that they should not become proud because they have been grafted in and the old branches were broken off. God did not spare the natural branches of Israel and He will not spare the new branch either, the church, if they fail to believe and obey and honor His ways. In fact Paul takes it a step further.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul says here that the church, the wild olive tree, is grafted into the good olive tree, Israel, which is contrary to the nature of the gentiles which comprise the church. After all they come from heathen nations with heathen cultures and do not observe that which is holy unto God. Yet God showed them mercy and made them part of the covenant and heirs to the promise through His grace and through their faith. However if they fail to keep His ways and follow His righteousness then He will cut them off just as He cut off the wicked branches of Israel. Paul also goes onto say that if God can graft people as contrary as the gentiles into the covenant how much easier must it be for Him to once again graft in the original branches, or heirs to the promise? After all they are actually branches from the good olive tree and thus it would be easy to restore them. Paul then goes on to explain, (Rom 11:25) “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”.

Now Paul is also the author of the letter to Galatia. Did he contradict himself when He wrote to the Galatians? No instead he is informing the gentile church that because of their belief and obedience to Christ they are now counted as Abraham’s seed and as such are heirs to the promise equally with the righteous Hebrew saints (Gal 3:26-29). Once a gentile becomes saved and believes on The Lord as the Scriptures teach then he or she becomes part of the body of Christ as much as any Jewish believer or anyone else. Thus within the church of Christ there is neither Jew nor gentile because all are part of the same body of believers and are heirs to the promise equally, whether Jew or gentile.

eph 2:11-12 gentiles was nothing

Agreed and now through Christ they are heirs to the promise as well.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

2 Thes 2:7 is not speaking about the church. It is speaking about that which holds order and keeps this evil from being fully unleashed. When it is the world will see the time of trouble such as has never been nor will ever be again.

Gods wrath will happen after God's first fruit[ro 8:23] are Gone... 1 cor 15:23-24 3 different resurrections of Gods people

Not so. Christ is Lord. Thus the day of The Lord is the day of Christ. It is a day both terrible and glorious. I am aware of no Scripture which differentiates the two.

Day of Christ ......phil 1:6, 10, 2:16 there is no Jesus in verse 6 it has been added to orginal

2 thes 2:2 begining of the DAY OF THE LORD
2peter 3:10-11 last days of Day of the Lord.. yes 1007 yr day [psalms 90:4,2 peter 3:8]


2 peter 3:12 .. day of God

You are right. I do disagree. Revelation speaks nothing of a pre-trib rapture. In fact you cannot find anywhere in Scripture which clearly delineates the order of prophetic events and includes a rapture before anything, then a tribulation period and finally the second coming (which would actually be the third) in which The Lord again gathers His elect and resurrects the dead again, after having done so in a secret rapture.

there is no secret if we know before it happens JUST A LACK OF FAITH [heb 11:1] the rapture is a Pauline mystery spelled out in 1 Cor 15:50-53 combined with 1 thes 4:16

This would essentially equal three resurrections yet Scripture only gives an account of two.

there are 5 resurrections
#1 Christ
#2 the Church .... 1 cor 15:23 three different times
#3 two witness...rev 11:11
#4 OT and tribulational saints ... rev 20:4-5
#5 The dead spiritually rev 20:11-12

We know that Jesus places His appearance and the gathering of His elect after the revelation of the abomination of desolation. We know that He says the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Him coming in the clouds with power and glory and that at that time His elect will be gathered. I am aware of no one who disagrees this is speaking about the second coming and of course this event is prophesied of in the OT. John says a second resurrection will happen at the end of the millennium. If there is also to be a secret rapture in which the dead in Christ rise and the living are changed then this will in effect be a third resurrection. Yet Scripture does not give an account of this.

OT saints and tribulational saints are never mentioned being put into Christ

NEVER

challenge you ... please check the greek

Who are the ones throwing these crowns? No I am afraid this does not prove pre-trib.

they are not angels... and if we see His face according to 1 john 3:2 we will be given are mansion [new body]that is promised in john 14:1-3

The church becomes heirs to the promise when they believe and obey the gospel. There is still the day of fulfillment when they will partake in the resurrection. Paul discusses this in 1 Corinthians 15. (1Co 15:22-23) “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits; #2 afterward they that are Christ's at his[2nd] coming.” Those that are in Christ shall be made alive (resurrected) at His coming. This is the promise we are to comfort one another with.



Indeed, now do you suppose there is a contradiction in Scripture?

if we were to go thru the tribulation do you think we would be worried to experience this... is this why

2 thes 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

its about here ! very soon! WE DO NOT KNOW WHEN HE WILL COME ...yet if the tribulation happened we would know the days and hours

Paul is making a distinction between the gentiles that have become part of the church and natural Israel. Paul is reminding them that God has not forsaken Israel or abandoned them or forgotten His promises to them.



The Jews were blind to the truth of The Messiah. Why did this happen?



Through their blindness and refusal to accept The Messiah salvation came to the gentiles. Now Paul goes on to speak about the olive tree which represents Israel. In Romans 11:16-24 Paul explains to the gentiles, the wild olive tree, here that they have been grafted into the good olive tree, Israel, and that other branches have been cut off. The branches he is referring to are the disobedient and unfaithful branches of Israel which God allowed to be scattered.



He goes on to caution the gentiles that they should not become proud because they have been grafted in and the old branches were broken off. God did not spare the natural branches of Israel and He will not spare the new branch either, the church, if they fail to believe and obey and honor His ways. In fact Paul takes it a step further.



Paul says here that the church, the wild olive tree, is grafted into the good olive tree, Israel, which is contrary to the nature of the gentiles which comprise the church. After all they come from heathen nations with heathen cultures and do not observe that which is holy unto God. Yet God showed them mercy and made them part of the covenant and heirs to the promise through His grace and through their faith. However if they fail to keep His ways and follow His righteousness then He will cut them off just as He cut off the wicked branches of Israel. Paul also goes onto say that if God can graft people as contrary as the gentiles into the covenant how much easier must it be for Him to once again graft in the original branches, or heirs to the promise? After all they are actually branches from the good olive tree and thus it would be easy to restore them. Paul then goes on to explain, (Rom 11:25) “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”.

Now Paul is also the author of the letter to Galatia. Did he contradict himself when He wrote to the Galatians? No instead he is informing the gentile church that because of their belief and obedience to Christ they are now counted as Abraham’s seed and as such are heirs to the promise equally with the righteous Hebrew saints (Gal 3:26-29). Once a gentile becomes saved and believes on The Lord as the Scriptures teach then he or she becomes part of the body of Christ as much as any Jewish believer or anyone else. Thus within the church of Christ there is neither Jew nor gentile because all are part of the same body of believers and are heirs to the promise equally, whether Jew or gentile.



Agreed and now through Christ they are heirs to the promise as well.

pray that God helps you... in either process
#1 2 tim 2:24-26 or
#2 2 cor 4:3-5

I do not know your heart but God does....

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The first death is the death of spirit that Adam experienced immediately at the fall [and in His loins as seed, we all died that day]. He was created "Adam, son of God" [Luke 3:38] and crowned with the glory [Psalm 8] and mae one spirit, called Adam, and male and female [Genesis 5:2; Malachi 2:15] to bring forth the sons of God for the glory of the Father to indwell as His human being house "not made with hands" [Haggai 2 speaks of the first house and the last house as the temples of human beings made for the glory], and was in fellowship with His Creator daily, who walked and talked with Him. His immediate death was the loss of glory and purpose of being, so he tried to cover that shame with fig leaves -and that is why we wear clothes to cover the shame of our vanity of being, having lost the glory as sons of God with the glory indwelling].

At the physical death of the body [a mercy granted so we would be redeemable to be redressed in garments of glory in the New Man's name and be sons of God in Him, in the proper season] all in Adam descended to Sheol below, from Abel to the time of the LORD Jesus' descent at His death when He became sin of rus on the cross and tasted the death of separation from the Father for every Adam and bore our sins -when the Father turned away from Him.

When Jesus Christ rose from the dead and ascended He led captivity captive by taking all the dead there who were just men but not born again in spirit [and so could they could not ascend to heaven at death] in their born again Spirit ["perfected"] to Zion above, at His ascension, to wait for their bodies of perfection there.

That first death is ended for all in Adam.
In Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive [whosoever will].

 

[Zadok7000]

First of all John 8:24 is not speaking about the millennium but rather about the failure of the very Jews He was speaking to at that time to believe in Him as the Scriptures teach. If it’s all spiritual then what need was there for a very physical resurrection of Christ? The rest of the dead do not live but remain dead until the millennium is complete. The only ones promised to live a complete day (thousand years) are the saints who partake in the first resurrection.

I think all of your points can be addressed with this.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. We are ALL changed at the 7th trumpet - it is not a reward, it is a REQUIREMENT. The reward for His saints is not being subject to the 2nd death - they live and reign with Him in Jerusalem during the 1,000 years. The rest outside the temple - STILL IN SPIRITUAL BODIES - are still subject to the 2nd death - they are judged by their works alone. It is impossible, repeat IMPOSSIBLE, for flesh bodies to be utilized during the Millennium. Jesus in John 8:24 was warning about the 2nd death, not the death of the flesh. ALL flesh dies, regardless of wether you accept Him or not.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I think all of your points can be addressed with this.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. We are ALL changed at the 7th trumpet - it is not a reward, it is a REQUIREMENT. The reward for His saints is not being subject to the 2nd death - they live and reign with Him in Jerusalem during the 1,000 years. The rest outside the temple - STILL IN SPIRITUAL BODIES - are still subject to the 2nd death - they are judged by their works alone. It is impossible, repeat IMPOSSIBLE, for flesh bodies to be utilized during the Millennium. Jesus in John 8:24 was warning about the 2nd death, not the death of the flesh. ALL flesh dies, regardless of wether you accept Him or not.

You have totally turned Truth of revealed doctrine upside down!
The spiritual body is the body prepared in the womb of the virgin for the Living Spirit, Christ, to inhabit. His name is Israel, as opposed to Adam; Genesis 5:2, Isaiah 49..

He has flesh and bone, and he certainly had blood to shed for us in the spiritual body of the second human being creation.
Adam is the flesh that will not inherit eternal Life with residency in heaven -and the regenerated earth- combined.

Jesus took up the same body on the third day after he departed it that He left. In three days and three nights that body could not see corruption because there was no sin in that body.

He bore our sns and iniquities in His soul, as our Scapegoat, which is why He departed the body and went away with those sins, leaving the body of the second human being creation to be our Mercy Seat while it hung on the cross which received the blood of the acceptable Atonement which ended the remembrance of Adam's transgression and opened the Way back to the Father for whosoever will, of Adam's race -but the Way into eternal life is through that Mercy Seat -the "strait door".

 

[Mighty Mouse]

What strikes me is that both pre-trib and post-trib proponents will probably need to agree to disagree. Personally, I'd rather be prepared for either eventuality.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

there are 5 resurrections
#1 Christ
#2 the Church .... 1 cor 15:23 three different times
#3 two witness...rev 11:11
#4 OT and tribulational saints ... rev 20:4-5
#5 The dead spiritually rev 20:11-12

So then why does John only speak of two resurrections in Revelation 20? I think you know the resurrections I am speaking of. If you want to get technical there have been many resurrections recorded in Scripture but we are focusing on the main ones, or mass resurrections recorded in prophecy, of which a hidden rapture would clearly qualify as a third.

We know that Jesus places His appearance and the gathering of His elect after the revelation of the abomination of desolation. We know that He says the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Him coming in the clouds with power and glory and that at that time His elect will be gathered. I am aware of no one who disagrees this is speaking about the second coming and of course this event is prophesied of in the OT. John says a second resurrection will happen at the end of the millennium. If there is also to be a secret rapture in which the dead in Christ rise and the living are changed then this will in effect be a third resurrection. Yet Scripture does not give an account of this.

OT saints and tribulational saints are never mentioned being put into Christ

NEVER

challenge you ... please check the greek

Considering the part of what I said that you quoted I am not sure what you are challenging here. Is Jesus not speaking in Matthew 24 about the same thing Daniel is speaking about in Daniel 12? Are you saying that the Jews and OT saints were not looking forward to the same Messiah that we, the church, now accept as our Lord Jesus Christ? Did not Christ first come unto His own because He was their prophesied Messiah? Once again I am not sure what you’re taking exception to here.

they are not angels... and if we see His face according to 1 john 3:2 we will be given are mansion [new body]that is promised in john 14:1-3

I never said they were. I asked who they are. Sorry, but this isn’t the smoking gun.

if we were to go thru the tribulation do you think we would be worried to experience this... is this why

2 thes 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

its about here ! very soon! WE DO NOT KNOW WHEN HE WILL COME ...yet if the tribulation happened we would know the days and hours

The passage is plain. Read the next few verses don’t ignore them. Paul went on to say that the day cannot come unless some things happen first. He did not say we will not know the time or have any expectation of it. In fact his exhortation is the complete opposite of that. The part that I underlined has been addressed in this thread already.

pray that God helps you... in either process
#1 2 tim 2:24-26 or
#2 2 cor 4:3-5

I do not know your heart but God does....

Paul said it. Not I. Are you saying he was wrong? What did he mean? Was his warning not legitimate? What about what God said and the promises He made? Has He changed His mind? This is where one must rightly divide the word of truth. Scripture teaches that the church has been spiritually added to the seed of Abraham and the house of Israel through faith, not flesh or works. As such we have become heirs to the promise of eternal life through Christ. If that is not what Scripture teaches then please educate me.

The first death is the death of spirit that Adam experienced immediately at the fall [and in His loins as seed, we all died that day].

This is your interpretation. I do not agree with it. To say the death was spiritual raises the question of whether physical death is by design. After all if God’s curse was a spiritual one, that Adam would die in spirit that day, then one can argue that physical death was always part of the design and not the result of the curse (since the curse was spiritual death). This leads to other questions about the resurrection, such as why a physical one would be necessary since all men were created to die physically anyway. I simply do not agree. Given the record of Genesis and John’s revelation about the removal of the curse of death and the restoration of the tree of life, I see no reason to dismiss a very physical curse of death since from that moment on Adam and his entire lineage failed to complete a day as it is with The Lord, that day being 1000 years. In the first resurrection they will complete a day with The Lord which was denied to Adam and his offspring because of his sin. This is probably something we will just have to disagree on.

I think all of your points can be addressed with this.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Actually it cannot since the new heavens and new earth will not happen until the end of the thousand years. The millennial reign is a call to form for all the nations of the world, a time of chastisement for some, and a call to righteousness for Israel where they can see what it means to truly live according to the precepts of God. After this comes the new heaven and the new earth and the New Jerusalem. Regardless of how you want to interpret it everyone will not be alive and kicking during the millennium. Scripture is certain on that point. I simply don’t buy into the “their alive for the whole millennium on earth but not really alive” argument. Scripture says it is those that are part of the first resurrection that will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. The rest will remain dead, which is the opposite of alive which as I understand it means in the grave.