pre-trib

[timlamb]

which part of 1 cor 15:23-24 does this happen

"It seems we have a denial of what the word says"--Hismessenger

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Does not the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew chapter 13 provide a complete and authoritative conclusion to eschatology, Since Christ himself explains the parable. Noting the sequence of events "gather together first the tares that they may be burnt". It would appear to me that anything else would be dogmatic.

May God Bless

You can't take the passage and isolate it from the context. Before that has come to pass the Gathering of His people has happened as Psalm 50 shows, and etc.
The angels gather the tares and burn them when Jesus returns to reign for the thousand years; they are not sheep or goats or the elect.
Before all these things happen the first harvest of sons of God harvested off earth and taken to the "barn" in the first ingathering typed in the Jewish Feasts has occured. The firstfruits of that harvest are in, already -on Resurrection Sunday, which the oracles teach about: if you would learn them you would be able to see.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The rapture is a gleaning of the early friut, the first fruit.

I live in tree fruit country and many varieties are picked for ripeness brefore the final harvest.

Read about the harvest in Revelation 14:14-20. The grapes are harvested and thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath. (the tares)

First you have the cherry harvest in the spring, then the apple harvest in the fall
Pentecost in the spring and the ingathering of Tabernacles in the fall
-We live in Wash State also.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

It seems that there is a denial of what the word says. When it says gather the tares first, this is the last day and it occurs for the judgement. There are no first fruit taken before them. And the Elect is for most of the references shown in the word, the church. There is a whole lot of tap dancing going on to hide the sour notes of unbelief. The word says immediately after the tribulation of those days He comes and then the gathering occurs. Fisrt the tares, then the wheat

Hismessenger

The Elect is the Firstborn Son of God, whose name is "Israel" [Isaiah 49] to whom alone He gives His glory.
If you are adopted into Christ, the Living Spirit, then you are in the Beloved Son, made one with and in His Spirit.

All of the nation of Israel are natural born sons by being born into the Name of God the Son, who is YHWH of hosts in the second Person come in human flesh of the second creation; who gave His New Man name to Jacob when Jacob was converted [Redeemed by faith] the night He wrestled with Him.

We who are born into the Spirit of Christ are adopted into Him and are in the Elect, one with Him also. But we'll be taken away off earth in the Appointed Season of the first harvest, Pentecost, which is coming.

So those left who are natural born sons will begin to see and be brought into the New Covenant in His blood; but those who are natural born sons in the Elect who do not see will be brought into the wilderness when they are "laqach" by angels and taken there at the return of the LORD and will not all enter into the millennial reign as the Blessed of the LORD but the rebels will be purged and sent into everlasting fire -alive in their bodies.
You'll find that in Ezekiel 20:33-44 and that is the gathering by angels of the elect from out of all Gentile nations at the return of the lORD to put down all authority and remove all wicked from the earth for His Reign of Sabbath Peace.
The sheep and the goat Gentiles are then gathered by angels and the goats are sent away into the everlasting fire, also alive in their bodies.

 

[timlamb]

First you have the cherry harvest in the spring, then the apple harvest in the fall
Pentecost in the spring and the ingathering of Tabernacles in the fall
-We live in Wash State also.

great neiborhood! I live near Wenatchee, not God's country, but certainly blessed.

 

[Zadok7000]

the Tribulational saints many will die during this time ... as they are loving the 144,000 virgin Jews

Im sorry but

 

[swamp401]

You can't take the passage and isolate it from the context. Before that has come to pass the Gathering of His people has happened as Psalm 50 shows, and etc.
The angels gather the tares and burn them when Jesus returns to reign for the thousand years; they are not sheep or goats or the elect.
Before all these things happen the first harvest of sons of God harvested off earth and taken to the "barn" in the first ingathering typed in the Jewish Feasts has occured. The firstfruits of that harvest are in, already -on Resurrection Sunday, which the oracles teach about: if you would learn them you would be able to see.

My brother I beg to differ, of all parables which could be taken out of context this one is virtually impossible to do so, as Christ himself established a beginning and an end. This is not done only once but twice as it is made irrefutable in his explanation to the disciples in following verses. To say that something else belongs is to make the whole statement,once again, dogmatic. As for the tares you mention, that are neither "sheep, goat or elect" leaves one only to assume you are then talking about the "sons of God", which then references to angelic beings. Now this would be a new one for me. I am not familiar with anything that tells of "good" angels destined to earth until the end, however I am familiar with the idea of "bad"(fallen angels) being bound until the millennial reign is over (Rev. 20:3). The parable defines the servants/reapers as being the angels. I am also not aware of the putting off of a harvest of "bad" angels in fear of uprooting "good" angels. I appreciate your studies, as i see that you have put forth a considerable amount of time in them. But, to say that anything else is to be done, implies that Christ forgot to tell us.

In Christ

 

[Hismessenger]

It seems that there are many who have never looked for themselves at the definitions of Tribulation and Wrath. They are too totally foreign concepts to each other. But the question of the tares is addressed by Jesus Himself in Matt:13

Mat 13:38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Mat 13:39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The question to those who believe the pretrib lie is why would Jesus say that the righteous shall shine forth as the sun after the tares are removed from the earth. Notice He said that He would send His angels to gather all things that offend and them which do iniquity. He doesn't say that He will gather His church first as is put forth. Please explain if you can and no suppositions or theology please the word is clear on what it says. Truth or death. It says the harvest is at the end of the world. The dead in Christ are raised after the tares are removed and then we which are alive are caught up to meet Him in the air.


Hismessenger

 

[timlamb]

It seems that there are many who have never looked for themselves at the definitions of Tribulation and Wrath. They are too totally foreign concepts to each other. But the question of the tares is addressed by Jesus Himself in Matt:13

The question to those who believe the pretrib lie is why would Jesus say that the righteous shall shine forth as the sun after the tares are removed from the earth. Notice He said that He would send His angels to gather all things that offend and them which do iniquity. He doesn't say that He will gather His church first as is put forth. Please explain if you can and no suppositions or theology please the word is clear on what it says. Truth or death. It says the harvest is at the end of the world. The dead in Christ are raised after the tares are removed and then we which are alive are caught up to meet Him in the air.


Hismessenger

First, God's wrath is unleashed in the tribulation. Ultimate evil is met with ultimate wrath, a terrible time.

Second, no arguement, Matthew 13:38-43 is about the judgment. For the elect sake, He intervenes and does away with evil for a thousand years while He rules. There will be righteous during that time.

Third, what does that have to do with the rapture? We are joined with Christ, the marriage supper, then we return with Him to rule with Him.

And forth, why would I lie about such a thing. You have no right to make those kind of statements and if you wish to continue in dialogue you will be civil.

 

[Hismessenger]

Show one scripture where it says that God's wrath begins in the tribulation.

Hismessenger

 

[timlamb]

Show one scripture where it says that God's wrath begins in the tribulation.

Hismessenger

"Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sit's on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?'" Revelation 6:15-17

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Show one scripture where it says that God's wrath begins in the tribulation.

Hismessenger

eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

before salvation ..... children of wrath

1 cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be judged with the world...hebrews 12:6

1 thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...

10 whether we wake or sleep in Christian life

romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath , and make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

church ..eph 5:25-27

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Im sorry but

?? what is your deal?

 

[Zadok7000]

?? what is your deal?

Seeing "are loving the 144,000 virgin Jews" is just funny to me. Example: Even in the most liberal definition, there can only be 24,000 "Jews" out of the 144,000.

 

[timlamb]

Seeing "are loving the 144,000 virgin Jews" is just funny to me. Example: Even in the most liberal definition, there can only be 24,000 "Jews" out of the 144,000.

12000 from each of the 12 tribes, all Jewish, God's chosen. Explain yourself please.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

great neiborhood! I live near Wenatchee, not God's country, but certainly blessed.

I know -I looked at your profile page once. Hubby and our three daughters and four grandchildren spent Christmas at a place near Leavenworth this year in three feet of snow [it seemed] and we usually go to Lake Chelan for our anniversary. We're West of the mountains.

The Feasts of YHWH are His Memorials and the meaning is double in them: immediate celebrations for Israel but types of the eternal truths of harvest of His sons in two harvests from earth.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

12000 from each of the 12 tribes, all Jewish, God's chosen. Explain yourself please.

And the 144,000 of the twelve trives of Israel are "Firstfruits", themselves, of the second harvest which is to come after the thousand year reign.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Firstfruits of the first harvest is gathered: Jesus Christ the Firstfruits rose on First of Firstfruits Memorial after Passover -and raised from their graves in perfected bodies many Saints of the Old Testament times to take with Him; when He ascended mid-morning to fulfill the Law. These 144,000 are Firstfruits of the second harvest of sons of God typed in the fall ingathering and last harvest celebrated at Tabernacles.

 

[timlamb]

I know -I looked at your profile page once. Hubby and our three daughters and four grandchildren spent Christmas at a place near Leavenworth this year in three feet of snow [it seemed] and we usually go to Lake Chelan for our anniversary. We're West of the mountains.

The Feasts of YHWH are His Memorials and the meaning is double in them: immediate celebrations for Israel but types of the eternal truths of harvest of His sons in two harvests from earth.

A Seattlite in my youth, I met my wife in Leavenworth and when you pass through Entiat on your way to Chelan I could through a rock and hit your car, so be nice LOL.

See you in the first harvest if not before.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

A Seattlite in my youth, I met my wife in Leavenworth and when you pass through Entiat on your way to Chelan I could through a rock and hit your car, so be nice LOL.

See you in the first harvest if not before.

It's going to be a great meeting in the air!

Oops! I should have said with our three married daughtwers and two sons -in- law -the third son -in- law had to be away because of his work on the North Slope [I can't leave out the in-laws].

 

[Zadok7000]

12000 from each of the 12 tribes, all Jewish, God's chosen. Explain yourself please.

The tribe of Judah is only ONE of the 12.
The house/Kingdom of Judah are only TWO of the 12.
Never ever ever has the house/Kingdom of Israel (the northern 10 tribes) been called "Jewish".