• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

pre-trib

Status
Not open for further replies.

timlamb

Senior Veteran
Feb 22, 2006
3,166
106
Entiat Washington
✟26,480.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican


Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence. Christ goes on to describe specifically how it will be at His return. As such He does not need to continue to reiterate what He has already said. Again all of what you see being described after He speaks of the appearance of the Son of Man relates to what He just said about the appearance of the Son of Man. It is not in addition to it. Christ was quite eloquent. It would make no sense to break off into some obscure prophecy about a rapture and not be clear that He has changed the subject. The reason it is not clear is because He hasn’t changed the subject. In fact the opposite is true.

He demonstrates that He is still describing the second coming, the coming of the Son of Man. Since His message from the beginning was about the chronological order of events leading up to the second coming why would He break from that and obscurely begin speaking about something that is supposed to happen before any of it, especially without prefacing His break from the subject and letting His audience in on His break from the subject? Since the nature of His discourse has been the chronological order of events why not include this at the beginning if it is supposed to be about a separate event that happens at the beginning? Why be so esoteric? It’s because He hasn’t changed the subject.

“...so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” (Mat. 24:39-40)

What is “then” referring to? It indicates something happens and this event follows it or coincides with it or is the result of it. The event is the “coming of the Son of Man” that Christ has been discussing, the second coming. In other words, “[At the coming of the Son of Man] shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left”. Christ is still talking about the second coming here as He makes clear in verse 39. He is still referring to what He was talking about in verse 30.

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Mat 24:30)

It’s not a break from the subject but a continuation and further description of the same subject, the same event, the second coming.
Many prophecy of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 and the tribulation sound simular. And many prophecy of the rapture and second comming sound interrelated, but it just isn't so. Many scripture point to a rapture and some definations just don't fit the goings on as described of the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31 is nothing like, and cannot be the same event as Matthew 24:36-38. Since we are looking at two discriptions of prophecied world events, what isn't there is as important as what is. Jesus wasn't leaving out the details.
 
Upvote 0

Zadok7000

Awake and Sober
Mar 21, 2005
3,865
44
50
Visit site
✟26,765.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I guess it has everything to do with what you are saying. I believe these will be flesh and blood people, not people in regenerated bodies. I believe people will live and die during the millennium not just at the end when the final judgment takes place. I believe this is what Isaiah is describing and is consistent with what John reveals.

Is not the Millennial reign of Christ on earth the Kingdom of God? Flesh and blood shall NOT inherit it. Getting a Spiritual body at HIS Return is not a reward, it is a NECESSITY.

I do not agree with this statement. I do not believe all will live through the millennium (from beginning to end) as the ones promised to complete the day are the resurrected saints not the sinners. The rest of the dead will remain dead for the duration of the millennium so they will not be alive in a new body. Their resurrection happens at the end of the millennium so all cannot be in their new bodies. As Isaiah makes plain people will die during this time, not just at the end.


People are SPIRITUALLY dead during the Millennium. See the Millennial chapters of Ezekiel to see how the Priests of Christ shall minister to the "dead" during that time. They are very much alive, but dead to the Life that is our King.

Ezek. 44:23-25 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

Who do you think the dry bones are?

Ezek. 37:1-5 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live


The tree of life is not restored at the beginning of the millennium, it is restored at the end. The only ones promised to live to the end of that day are those resurrected saints in Christ.


When have I said this is not true? The 2nd death has no power over those of the 1st resurrection. There is NO mention of the "1st death". Why? Because there are NO MORE FLESH BODIES. Only the 2nd death can affect people in the Millennium. Why? Because the 2nd death ONLY applies to the Spiritual body. 1st death = death of the flesh. 2nd death = death of the soul.

That judgment is for the rest of the dead who will be judged according to their works.

The "rest of the dead" are very much in Spiritual bodies throughout the Millennium. They are not allowed to approach Christ as they are unclean in their sin. If they do not repent by the end of the 1,000 years, they will die in their sins (John 8:24).
 
Upvote 0

Kingdom_Come

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2004
864
18
✟1,117.00
Faith
Pentecostal
A Brother In Christ said:
The church is looking forward to the Rapture since God reveal the mystery to us ....We get eternal life upon believing ... we are the first fruit that are connected with Christ

Yet Scripture reveals no such rapture event. It only reveals the gathering of His elect that happens at His appearing, the second coming as He describes in Matthew. The disciples are the ones who He was speaking to, not the Jews. The disciples came to Him privately and asked for the sign of His coming. He was speaking to them and about those that believe on Him. It is not the Jews that will be gathered to Christ, it is the church and Jesus says this happens at the time when the tribes of the earth mourn and they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

HowardDean said:
We are to look forward to Jesus' coming. I don't think we will be very happy if we are stuck in the tribulation, where most christians will be put to death.

I am sure the apostles and the early church did not enjoy being persecuted or put to death but they persevered looking to the promise of the resurrection and eternal life. The saints at the time of the end should be doing the same.

timlamb said:
Matthew 24:29-31 is nothing like, and cannot be the same event as Matthew 24:36-38. Since we are looking at two discriptions of prophecied world events, what isn't there is as important as what is. Jesus wasn't leaving out the details.

This is an artificial dichotomy that people create. It is not supported by the text. People are the ones reading into the text that this must be describing a different event yet Jesus confirms He is talking about the same event. People are the ones concluding that this sounds like a different time than Jesus described earlier yet not one single prophet, apostle or even Christ Himself preached or revealed any such secret rapture doctrine. The only way to come to that conclusion is by assuming the time because you cannot find anywhere in Scripture where a rapture is placed before all the events described, before the time of great tribulation or before the second coming. Rather than read the text in the context of what Christ, the prophets and apostles revealed people try to read into the text what they would like to see revealed. There is a reason people cannot find clear Scripture which delineates a secret rapture event prior to any sign or the time of great tribulation. It is because Scripture does not teach this.
 
Upvote 0

BombShelterBob

Active Member
Oct 20, 2006
204
1
68
✟22,840.00
Faith
Christian
timlamb said:
If this happens we will deal with it then. But it doesn't fit into bible prophecy so I am not concerned. The mark is a world wide event and is related to obediance not government identity.

I'll tell you the truth i'm not in love with any idea. I figure however it turns out i'll keep being a Christian, and if it means my death so be it. I will try with all my heart to confess Jesus Christ as My saviour, and all others be liars. I think if i stay right there i'll be ok don't you.
 
Upvote 0

timlamb

Senior Veteran
Feb 22, 2006
3,166
106
Entiat Washington
✟26,480.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'll tell you the truth i'm not in love with any idea. I figure however it turns out i'll keep being a Christian, and if it means my death so be it. I will try with all my heart to confess Jesus Christ as My saviour, and all others be liars. I think if i stay right there i'll be ok don't you.
abslutely! Choose Christ, let the body fall and save the soul at what ever level we face this decission.
 
Upvote 0

Kingdom_Come

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2004
864
18
✟1,117.00
Faith
Pentecostal
HowardDean said:
"When they say Peace and safety, then sudden destruction will come upon them"
No one will be saying peace during the tribulation.

Once again this is isolating a Scripture and reading your own context into it. You should read the rest of the passage. This Scripture is talking about the mindset of the world, not the church. It is talking about the arrival of the day of The Lord. It is saying that the day will come upon the world as a thief in the night. Why? Because they are not watching for it or expecting it. Once again the church, however, should not be caught unaware by the day of The Lord because they are not in darkness. So the world will say peace and safety and live life like normal with no expectation of judgment or of the arrival of The Lord just as people in Noah’s day did not expect judgment. Context is everything. This is a statement of comfort and a reminder of the promise of the Lord’s return.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 
Upvote 0

BombShelterBob

Active Member
Oct 20, 2006
204
1
68
✟22,840.00
Faith
Christian
HowardDean said:
Thats not peace and safety, even if one doesn't realize He's coming.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety! Then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail upon a woman with child. And they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief.


 
Upvote 0

A Brother In Christ

Senior Veteran
Mar 30, 2005
5,528
53
Royal city, washington
✟5,985.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yet Scripture reveals no such rapture event. It only reveals the gathering of His elect that happens at His appearing, the second coming as He describes in Matthew.

1 cor 15:23 But each one in his own order: #1 Christ the first fruits of the spirit romans 8:23 , #2 afterwards those who are Christ's possessions at His 2nd coming 24 #3 Then comes the end group, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father


2 thes 2:1-7 thee beast can not come till the Holy Spirit leaves with the church during the rapture

then the Great TRibulation will happen

Rev 4:10 God gives the church the crown for works done on earth .... this is right before the Great trib starts
five crown promise in Pauls writings

The disciples are the ones who He was speaking to, not the Jews. The disciples came to Him privately and asked for the sign of His coming. He was speaking to them and about those that believe on Him.
were the disciples not Jews ... I think so ...
It is not the Jews that will be gathered to Christ, it is the church and Jesus says this happens at the time when the tribes of the earth mourn and they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

confusing Jewish promises with Church promises?
 
Upvote 0

timlamb

Senior Veteran
Feb 22, 2006
3,166
106
Entiat Washington
✟26,480.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is an artificial dichotomy that people create. It is not supported by the text. People are the ones reading into the text that this must be describing a different event
There is a reason people cannot find clear Scripture which delineates a secret rapture event prior to any sign or the time of great tribulation. It is because Scripture does not teach this
.
[/quote]

"...let us be self controlled, putting on faith and Love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmut. For God did not appoint us to suffer WRATH but to recieve salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

"Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's WRATH through Him." Romans 5:9

"Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH of the Lamb! For the great day of their WRATH has come, and who can stand?" Revelation 6:15-17

Revelation 19:11-16 describes the second comming; eyes of blazing fire, robe dipped in blood, the armies of heaven following Him. A sword to strike down, and iron scepter to rule with"...He treads the winepress of the fury of the WRATH of God Almighty."

The tribulation and second comming bring the WRATH of God.

Or take Matthew 24: the abomination that causes desolation, flee into the mountains, dreadful in those days, "For there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short no one would servive." Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's light; the stars will fall from the sky, and heavenly bodies will be shaken. "At that time....They will see the Son of Man comming on the clouds of the sky."

"And that is how it will be at the comming of the son of man. Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." Matthew 24:39-41

We will not face the wrath of the tribulation, the bride will be taken, then the return of Christ to reign with an iron rod.
 
Upvote 0

timlamb

Senior Veteran
Feb 22, 2006
3,166
106
Entiat Washington
✟26,480.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

"...let us be self controlled, putting on faith and Love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmut. For God did not appoint us to suffer WRATH but to recieve salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him." 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

"Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's WRATH through Him." Romans 5:9

"Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH of the Lamb! For the great day of their WRATH has come, and who can stand?" Revelation 6:15-17

Revelation 19:11-16 describes the second comming; eyes of blazing fire, robe dipped in blood, the armies of heaven following Him. A sword to strike down, and iron scepter to rule with"...He treads the winepress of the fury of the WRATH of God Almighty."

The tribulation and second comming bring the WRATH of God.

Or take Matthew 24: the abomination that causes desolation, flee into the mountains, dreadful in those days, "For there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short no one would servive." Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's light; the stars will fall from the sky, and heavenly bodies will be shaken. "At that time....They will see the Son of Man comming on the clouds of the sky."

"And that is how it will be at the comming of the son of man. Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." Matthew 24:39-41
We will not face the wrath of the tribulation, the bride will be taken, then the return of Christ to reign with an iron rod.[/quote]

There is no way these two could be the same event.
 
Upvote 0

A Brother In Christ

Senior Veteran
Mar 30, 2005
5,528
53
Royal city, washington
✟5,985.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Read Revelation 2:10 and 11. If the church is gone, how is it that they are to suffer tribulation even for ten days. God doesn't lie for He is truth and His word is truth. The church is still here during the tribulation.

Hismessenger

the Great trib starts in Rev 5

rev 1-3 are before the trib

vs 4 is seconds after the Rapture
 
Upvote 0

icedtea

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 13, 2006
22,183
1,738
Ohio
✟30,909.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Read Revelation 2:10 and 11. If the church is gone, how is it that they are to suffer tribulation even for ten days. God doesn't lie for He is truth and His word is truth. The church is still here during the tribulation.

Hismessenger
The tribulation lasts more than 10 days.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm so glad you bought this up.
If the tribulation went for only 7 years,,,How do you explain this?

A Multitude from the Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."


If the tribulation went for 7 years only, wouldnt you be able to count the number.? If we know what the population of the planet is today, what are our chances of coming up with a reasonable estimate?
But if the tribulation started when Jesus said it did, ( the days of vengeance) in luke-with the dispersion of Jews to the world nations -until the times of the Gentiles is over, then could you count this number?-
NO-ONE COULD COUNT THIS ?

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
14 I said[1][Lit have said ] to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ( This is what we should do)

15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple[2][Or sanctuary ]; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat[3][Lit fall ] down on them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water[4][Lit waters ] of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."




3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell[1][Or tabernacle ] among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them[2][One early ms reads, and be their God ],
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6 Then He said to me, "It[4][Lit They are ] is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. REV 22
how many men can you count standing in a crowd at a given time?
I've heard many make claims of million man marches which were only a few hundred, some said, and trying to count heads from satellite videos of huge crowds gathered seems almost impossible, doesn;t it?
Seems when the two [eye[ witnesses preach Jesus in Jerusalem and the 144,000 are taken as firstfruits of the second harvest, that the first harvest still has a lot of gleanings left to gather.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
So you see the "life from the dead" in the great numbers of martyred Believers out of the great tribulation.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And Zadok,
the spiritual man is the second man, a fully human being who is not made a living soul, as the first, earthy man, of the earth is =Adam, but is the LORD from heaven, the Living Spirit, Himself, come in the second created human being body of flesh and bone -and we know his created body He is come in had blood:)

1Cr 15:47 The first human being [anthropos][is] of the earth, earthy: the second human being [anthropos] [is] the Lord from heaven.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first human being Adam, was made a living soul; the last Adam, a quickening spirit.

Jesus Christ as the Living Spirit come in human being flesh prepared for Him to indwell forever in the womb of the virgin as the second human being creation for the Father's glory is fully human forever, dual natured; the eternal YHWH come to dwell in prepared Human flesh of the second creation, forever.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.