pre-trib

[timlamb]

Matthew 24:40,41 and Luke 17:34,35 speak of the rapture. They tell a story of time, a globle moment. They tell of the sudden and unexpected event at a peaceful time. They also speak of a time when believers and nonbelievers work and live and sleep side by side. Through this we can know that the rapture will come at a time of peace between the church and the world. This is comforting as we are able to see in these passages that we who are raptured, by grace and mercy, "...may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.". Luke 21:36

Any thoughts?

 

[icedtea]

"When they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them."

 

[timlamb]

"When they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them."

Is this meant to support or oppose my assessment of scripture?

The rapture time is a secret to suprize satan and his angles. Just before the end God will pour out His Spirit. Many will be lulled comfortably to sleep.

 

[jeffweeder]

Matthew 24:40,41 and Luke 17:34,35 speak of the rapture

Are you sure?
In the context of what was being said, this was in relation to his coming again.
Jesus had just told his disciples that only the father new when this day of the lords coming would be,-it would be a day, like in Noahs day---


37 "For the[25][Lit just as...were the days ] coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand[26][Lit know ] until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will[27][Lit is ] be taken and one will[28][Lit is ] be left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill[29][I.e. handmill]; one will[30][Lit is ] be taken and one will[31][Lit is ] be left.

42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
43 "But be[32][Lit know this ] sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken[33][Lit dug through ] into.
44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
45 "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master[34][Or lord ] put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master[35][Or lord ] finds so doing when he comes.
47 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master[36][Or lord ] is[37][Lit lingers ] not coming for a long time,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
50 the master[38][Or lord ] of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,


Establishing the rapture and the coming of the lord as the same thing is firmly established in the Scriptual writing.;

John-;
"And i shall raise him up the last day"

When he appears, we shall be like him, for we see him as he is.-(We'll change)
Peter

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5 For when[1][Or they are willfully ignorant of this fact, that ] they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. -Noah-
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. -(see 2thess 1)
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which theheavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its[2][Lit the works in it ] works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things

Paul
1thes 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout[13][Or cry of command ], with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and[14][Lit who ] remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1cor 15
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.


We see this "changing" in the twinkling of an eye " as the ressurection. And 1thes 4 :17 tells you what happens next, and verse 16 tells you its the lords coming that has initiated the ressurection.
Its the catching away.

The Lord Jesus Christ
14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world[7][Lit inhabited earth ] as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the[18][Or heaven ] sky, and the powers of the[19][Or heaven ] heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[20][Or chosen ones ] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 "For the[25][Lit just as...were the days ] coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand[26][Lit know ] until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

[icedtea]

Through this we can know that the rapture will come at a time of peace between the church and the world.

Support. When the world thinks it is finally in safety and peace because of the Beast, then the rapture happens, and destruction cometh!

 

[Kingdom_Come]

I believe that the first resurrection and what people call the rapture are in fact the same event. I also believe that when you search the whole of Scripture on the subject you find that the rapture does not take place prior to the tribulation period. Now to understand this you must first define what period you are referring to. Most people are referring to the period when the man of sin arrives on the scene and persecutes the saints. They are also referring to the judgments of God and the seals and vials listed in Revelation.

You mention Matthew 24. Take a close look at the entire Chapter. Jesus describes many of the events that will transpire including the killing of His people. He describes natural disasters and many other things. While these things by definition are trials Jesus continues to say that it will be after they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place that a time of great tribulation will come upon the world. He does not elaborate on this. Consider the events laid out in Daniel Chapter 11. These are descriptions of events happening throughout history and concluding with events that happen at the time of the end. The players are generically referred to as the king of the north and the king of the south. From the text it seems quite clear that the king of the south is in the Middle East at the time of the end.

Yet it is after all these events transpire that in Chapter 12 Daniel says that the time of trouble will come. Jesus echoes these same sentiments in Matthew 24.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In this verse it is being revealed to Daniel that after the fall of the last great king of the north a time of great tribulation will come such as has never been since the beginning of the world (reference Daniel 11:40-45). Jesus reveals that it is when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place that this time of great tribulation will come. Now we can correlate this with other Scripture to help paint a fuller picture. It is revealed in Revelation 11:2, (ESV) “but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months”.

This would seem to be a time of conquest when Israel is no longer protected. I link these two because Christ says it will be when you see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place that the time of great tribulation will come and Daniel says it will happen after the king of the north falls, indicating war. It would make sense then that during a conquest this abomination of desolation would stand in the holy place that he has conquered. John reveals that there is a time that the gentiles are to trample the holy city (once again indicating war).

Moreover if we look at Revelation Chapters 17 and 18 we can see quite the correlation between Mystery Babylon and the final king of the north mentioned at the end of Daniel Chapter 11. Revelation Chapter 17 reveals, among other things, that the great nation of Mystery Babylon will be destroyed by the ten kings. The nature of the destruction described sounds an awful lot like it could be a nuclear attack. And in agreement with Daniel John reveals in Revelation Chapter 18, (v4) “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues”. Daniel describes it as the angel Michael standing up to gather the elect of God. John calls it a voice from heaven gathering God’s people. Both happen sometime after the fall of a major world power, in fact the major world power at that time. Thus it seems logical that they are talking about the same end time world power.

Also it is important to note that the time of great trouble (or tribulation) is upon the whole world, not just a select group of people. We know this because Jesus reveals this.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:22 (ESV) And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Jesus says no flesh would survive if those days were not shortened. This is not referring only to saints but to everyone on the earth. This would seem to indicate A.) that the threat is to all people and B.) the elect are in some way threatened and so this carnage must be stopped. Then we read this:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Verse 28 is a clear reference to the battle of Armageddon for it is then that the fouls of the air are gathered to feast on the corpses of the dead.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Now once we establish this connection then we see what Jesus says next.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now compare that with what Daniel writes and what is revealed in Revelation as well as elsewhere in Scripture and we begin to get a clearer picture. The tribulation that I believe is being spoken of here is the unleashing of war and chaos. The man of sin is called the son of perdition (2Th 2:3). Another way of saying it is the son of destruction. He will be a destroyer. When there is no power to restrain him then he will unleash war, death, destruction and chaos on the world. The physical restrainer will be the final king of the north, or Mystery Babylon, and because she has become so wicked God will deliver her into the hands of the enemy. In Revelation Chapter 16 we see that God sets her up for her fall. Then the wicked ones that follow the son of perdition will strike and destroy her. Then the final beast empire will have no opposition capable of stopping his reign of destruction. Do not confuse this with spiritual restraint. Quite possibly he will unleash nuclear and maybe biological weapons throughout the world. He will bring in so much destruction that if Christ did not stop him he would wipe all flesh from the face of the earth. Now if this tribulation being spoken of was God’s judgment then what need would Christ have to come here to stop it? He could certainly stop it without making an appearance. Christ needs to make an appearance to stop the beast and his armies from destroying the world and specifically He does this for the sake of His elect.

Throughout Scripture we see that Christ returns to crush the powers of the world at the time of the end and set up and deliver the kingdom into the hands of His people, His elect. I believe there is a spiritual side to this as well, or a side that we perhaps will not see. There is an angel of perdition whose time of release is around the time of the end (when he will no longer be restrained in a pit of darkness) and it would seem he and Satan work with and through this man of sin, or son of perdition. Through lies and false miracles the world is deceived. Then the world, for a time, is delivered into his control and those that follow him will follow him into destruction (reference Rev 14:10-11; 17:11).

I say all of that to say this; Scripture makes it quite clear when the gathering of the saints is to take place. When certain Scriptures are not isolated but rather are taken in the context of Scripture as a whole and in light of prophecy that has been revealed throughout Scripture by many different sources all receiving them from The One True Source, then we see that the time of the gathering of God’s elect, the time of the resurrection, the time of the rapture (or catching up) is after the tribulation period and is for the purpose of preserving God’s elect and mankind upon the earth as the world enters the millennial reign.

 

[icedtea]

How do you reconcile He comes as a theif in the night, watch, for you know not when He comes, with
Every eye will see Him.?

 

[jeffweeder]

How do you reconcile He comes as a theif in the night, watch, for you know not when He comes, with
Every eye will see Him.?

when he comes, every eye will see him-rev 1.
You didnt see it coming, but then the sign of the son of man appeared in the sky, in visable range, descending, and every eye sees this like they see the space shuttle re-enter the atmosphere- the sonic boom-the sign of the son of man. and then they shall see the lord returning

 

[timlamb]

coming again.[/B]
Jesus had just told his disciples that only the father new when this day of the lords coming would be,-it would be a day, like in Noahs day---


Establishing the rapture and the coming of the lord as the same thing is firmly established in the Scriptual writing.


We see this "changing" in the twinkling of an eye " as the ressurection. And 1thes 4 :17 tells you what happens next, and verse 16 tells you its the lords coming that has initiated the ressurection.
Its the catching away.

It can be hard to seperate the second comming from the rapture in prophecy. But first of all, according to the events leading up to the second comming Christians will not be working and sleeping side by side with non-Christians. It will be a time of persicution like the world has never known.

Scripture also discribes the Lord returning WITH the saints, along side Him out of heaven. While the rapture is only about believers being caught up to be with Him. The second comming He comes to conquer and then judge all men as they are. In the rapture He transforms believers and takes them away with out judgement.

There are no signs before the rapture, it can happen anytime. The second comming is set up by many prophecied events. The rapture sets up the tribulation, the second comming is the finalisation of the tribulation.

The second comming is prophecied in the old testament. The rapture is revealed in Christ Jesus.

 

[icedtea]

I agree with tim.

 

[timlamb]

Support. When the world thinks it is finally in safety and peace because of the Beast, then the rapture happens, and destruction cometh!

I'm a little more pre-trib thinking than that but we are near the same page.

 

[icedtea]

I meant 7 years of destruction after the rapture. I am pre trib all right, tis what got me saved.

 

[timlamb]

I meant 7 years of destruction after the rapture. I am pre trib all right, tis what got me saved.

I am hearing from teachers who believe the rapture is the defining moment, the start of the clock so to speak for the second comming. It is the rapture that will set up the false prophet, but also bring many fence sitters to belief and it is those who will be myrtered in the tribulation. I am so glad we are promised to be spared that.

 

[timlamb]

I meant 7 years of destruction after the rapture. I am pre trib all right, tis what got me saved.

Those believers who are post trib are really in for a pleasent suprize aren't they!!

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Kingdom_Come]

How do you reconcile He comes as a theif in the night, watch, for you know not when He comes, with
Every eye will see Him.?

Excellent question! This is another case where unfortunately people do not rightly divide the word of God. I will try to answer your question using Scripture and the actual Biblical teaching concerning this metaphor. First there are two places in Scripture that make use of this metaphor. We must consider two things; what is going to come as a thief in the night and upon who will it come as a thief in the night?

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This answers the “what”. It will be the day of The Lord that will come as a thief in the night. Now the “who” is not the church but the world.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

As Paul reveals here to the church at Thessalonica, we are not in darkness that the day of The Lord should come upon us without expectation or warning as we have the prophets, apostles and the teachings of Christ that give us a road map and show us the signs we should be looking for so that we will know when the time draws near. We are commanded to watch and be sober. In order to watch one must have some idea that there is something to watch for and it would help to have an idea of what to watch for. This is what Scripture reveals to the saints of God.

Therefore it is the world that has denied God and has turned their hearts away from God and those that either live in ignorance or choose to ignore the word of God and the warnings therein, those that live in darkness, that are the ones upon who the day of The Lord will come as a thief in the night, or unexpectedly. The church was given the signs so that they would know when the time draws near to their salvation. Therefore the church should not be caught unaware by the day of The Lord. While we will not know specifically the day or the hour, we will know the season. This was the purpose of the parable about the fig tree.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:


Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

You can also reference Mark 13:28-30. It is given to the saints to recognize the season in which they live and to know when the time draws near. The Scripture is clear that the time of the trampling of the holy city will last a very short time. Thus Christ said when you see these things begin you will know that the time is near and that generation will not pass from the earth until all things prophesied concerning that time, up to the great and glorious appearing of Christ and the gathering of His elect, are fulfilled.

P.S. I also wanted to add this Scripture as it supports the same conclusion. (Rev 3:3)” Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee”. Jesus warns the church here that if they do not watch then they will not know that that day is near. This will only be the case if they are not watching.

 

[jeffweeder]

I meant 7 years of destruction after the rapture.

I'm so glad you bought this up.
If the tribulation went for only 7 years,,,How do you explain this?

A Multitude from the Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."


If the tribulation went for 7 years only, wouldnt you be able to count the number.? If we know what the population of the planet is today, what are our chances of coming up with a reasonable estimate?
But if the tribulation started when Jesus said it did, ( the days of vengeance) in luke-with the dispersion of Jews to the world nations -until the times of the Gentiles is over, then could you count this number?-
NO-ONE COULD COUNT THIS ?

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
14 I said[1][Lit have said ] to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ( This is what we should do)

15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple[2][Or sanctuary ]; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat[3][Lit fall ] down on them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water[4][Lit waters ] of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."




3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell[1][Or tabernacle ] among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them[2][One early ms reads, and be their God ],
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6 Then He said to me, "It[4][Lit They are ] is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. REV 22

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Kingdom_Come]

It is the rapture that will set up the false prophet, but also bring many fence sitters to belief and it is those who will be myrtered in the tribulation. I am so glad we are promised to be spared that.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul reveals to the church at Thessalonica that the day of Christ will not come until there is a falling away and the son of perdition be revealed. Therefore the man of sin must be revealed before the day of Christ. If that event has not happened yet then the time is not yet at hand. Paul is echoing what Christ said.

Christ said that when you see the abomination of desolation then will be a time of great tribulation and that immediately after this will He send his angels to gather His elect (reference Mat 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-27). Thus the day of Christ and our gathering unto Him cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed.

 

[vinsight4u]

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