Pre-Trib Deception in the Last Times

[nolidad]

Yes, you do. Because somewhere you are twisting something, but I wont know how until you point out the scripture you THINK states what you are touting.

Nowhere in the NT is ANYONE saved by just having the Spirit come down on them without the person needing baptism into water.

Disclaimer note:
I am not saying it is the water that saves you. I am saying that because of what scripture says, water is required for salvation, obedience to what the gospel states for our salvation.

Then you hate Pauls ministry based on teh scripture I gave you on another post. Paul did little baptizing! So that means those people who received Christ weren't saved until they got dunked! That is untruth .

Romans 10:9 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Water baptism is reserved for those who are already saved! It is simply a public declaration of what has already taken place inside!

 

[nolidad]

God, angels and heaven, are all spiritual concepts. They are all outside of our dimension.
If God wills it, they can be seen by people on earth. Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56

that is a cop out!

There is no scripture that says people will live in heaven, therefore the vast multitude seen by John in Rev 7:9, is in Jerusalem, on earth.

I could care less about that one.

BUT:
Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven

C,mon man accept Scripture and enjoy life!

I also know that once the present universe is dissolved and the new heavens and earth are created- heaven comes down to the new earth and we go in and out freely!

 

[iamlamad]

So you believe water baptism is essential to be saved? I just wish to make sure.

1 Cor. 1:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If water baptism is essential for salvation (being baptized by the Spirit) then Paul failed in his ministryh- fo rhe said He didn't go about baptizing!

It seems water baptism was far more necessary for the Jewish church that for the Gentile church.

 

[Acts2:38]

So you believe water baptism is essential to be saved? I just wish to make sure.

1 Cor. 1:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If water baptism is essential for salvation (being baptized by the Spirit) then Paul failed in his ministryh- fo rhe said He didn't go about baptizing!

Epic fail for your supporting scripture.

This in no way means that baptism in water is false. Maybe before you cherry pick scripture, you get the WHOLE story of why he said that....

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

The Corinthians were going through turmoil, and Paul was setting them straight. Had nothing to do with proving "baptism of spirit" as you say. This is comparing apples to oranges sir. This has nothing to do with what you wish it to be.

I might as politely as possible add, no wonder your so confused. Pull out scripture like that shows me that your just throwing darts in the dark.

Well as I did not quote Matt. 16 it is irrelevant.

Peter did open the way for different peoples or ethnos to receive Christ. And enter into teh mystery form of the kingdom which Paul declared openly!

Yes, you did quote from Matthew 16. You dont even remember that? or are you trying to back track?

In any case here is you, quoting from Matthew 16, even though you said you didnt

Well you are confusing the word "saint" with the saints that are members of the Body of Christ!

I will give you the one verse that should end your misunderstanding!

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Acts2:38]

Then you hate Pauls ministry based on teh scripture I gave you on another post. Paul did little baptizing! So that means those people who received Christ weren't saved until they got dunked! That is untruth .

As I told you in a very recent post that you didnt yet have time to respond to, You have no clue why Paul said that in 1 Cor 1. Maybe you should read the previous verses.

Also, it wasn't Pauls job to go around baptizing. He had to spread the work on missionary journeys.

Lastly, your point of "baptism in water not necessary" is flawed when in the very verses you gave me, it stated that Paul baptized a couple people. It was right there in your face. All paul was saying, is that it was not his job, his job was spreading the word.

Romans 10:9 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Water baptism is reserved for those who are already saved! It is simply a public declaration of what has already taken place inside!

You are wrong again. Simple study would have avoided this.

Acts 2:38 says that
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You need to repent AND be baptized....in Christs name... FOR the remission of sins... AND then you will receive the Holy Ghost.

The word baptize(d)/baptism in every verse, unless otherwise directed, is implying in water.

Baptizo in the Greek, is to dip, plunge, immerse

What did the Ethiopian do in Acts 8?

"Look, here is water, what hinders me?"

Philip: If you believe, then you may

Ethiopian: I believe in Christ

Then they both went into the water and he was baptized. ONLY when the baptism was complete, did Philip disappear from the Ethiopians eyes.

Paul himself was baptized Acts 22

Aninias: And now why do you tarry? Arise, BE BAPTIZED, and wash away your sins

Sounds like Acts 2:38 to me. Paul was going to be baptized to wash away his sins. why?
because in order to receive remission for sins and receive the Holy Ghost, you need to repent and be baptized.

Galatians 3:27 states that you put on Christ when you are baptized. It does NOT say in the holy spirit, it fully implies being baptized as the Ethiopian was, in water.

1 Peter 3:20-21

Sir, in the face of all the scripture I have given you, I will debate this no longer with you. It is clearly there for all to see. The words are blunt and crystal.

 

[Copperhead]

They are there before the Return of Jesus.

I know I have asked this in another thread, but would you please elaborate on this..... are angels considered saints?

 

[keras]

There is no scripture that says people will live in heaven, therefore the vast multitude seen by John in Rev 7:9, is in Jerusalem, on earth.

I could care less about that one.

No, because you can't refute it!

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven

C,mon man accept Scripture and enjoy life!

Revelation 19:1-2 is referring to the martyrs, as per Revelation 6:9-11. They are allowed to cry out at times and in that passage, they thank and praise God for taking vengeance on their murderers.
They are dead people, if you wish to be among them; get your head chopped off!

 

[keras]

I know I have asked this in another thread, but would you please elaborate on this..... are angels considered saints?

No.
Angels are God's messengers; Spirits. Saints are those people who have proved their faith in God: humans. Often unto death.

When Jesus Returns He will be accompanied by His angel army. Revelation 19:14, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31
Every faithful Christian person alive at that time will be transported to where He is, initially in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. 1 Thess 4:17, only the martyrs of the GT will be brought back to life then, all the rest of the dead await the GWT; after the Millennium.

 

[nolidad]

I might as politely as possible add, no wonder your so confused. Pull out scripture like that shows me that your just throwing darts in the dark.

No I just know water baptism is for people who are believers already! It is a public declaration of a reality that already occured inside! One can be saved for years and gorw in grace and knowlerdge without being dunked!

It doesn't matter what turmoil corinth was in- Paula statement is all encompassing. He did little to no baptizing everywhere he went! Just look at Acts- you don't see Paul spending time baptizing. I also see nowhere that Paul says water baptism is a requisite for salvation! Just the opposite really.

 

[nolidad]

Yes, you did quote from Matthew 16. You dont even remember that? or are you trying to back track?

In any case here is you, quoting from Matthew 16, even though you said you didnt

Yes I did- In showing that the church was not yet in existence. It was a different topic (as to when the church existed) and not on baptism. But my bad.

 

[nolidad]

This in no way means that baptism in water is false. Maybe before you cherry pick scripture, you get the WHOLE story of why he said that....

Epic fail for your supporting scripture.

This in no way means that baptism in water is false. Maybe before you cherry pick scripture, you get the WHOLE story of why he said that....

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

The Corinthians were going through turmoil, and Paul was setting them straight. Had nothing to do with proving "baptism of spirit" as you say

The fail belongs to you.
No man baptizes any one in the Spirit. The spirit does that on His own the moment someone recieves Christ as Savior or any one of the other terms people wish to use to call being saved!
JOhn 3:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Paul was saying He water baptized almost no one.

I never even implied water baptism is false! It is required for discipleship- not salvation. Every believer should be baptized in water- not to be saved- but because they are saved and desire to follow Christ!

 

[nolidad]

Revelation 19:1-2 is referring to the martyrs, as per Revelation 6:9-11. They are allowed to cry out at times and in that passage, they thank and praise God for taking vengeance on their murderers.
They are dead people, if you wish to be among them; get your head chopped off!

Speculation on your part as to identity and skipping where they are crying form. IN HEAVEN.

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven,

Bridse of the Lamb is in heaven as well!

 

[keras]

Speculation on your part as to identity and skipping where they are crying form. IN HEAVEN.

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven,

Bridse of the Lamb is in heaven as well!

Your belief of people living in heaven, is just not Biblical. Jesus said so; John 3:13, +
We are earth people, we have work for God to do here and we will receive rewards for faithful service when Jesus Returns. Matthew 16:27

 

[nolidad]

Your belief of people living in heaven, is just not Biblical. Jesus sad so; John 3:13, +
We are earth people, we have work for God to do here and we will receive rewards for faithful service when Jesus Returns. Matthew 16:27

Then who are these much people in heaven as written in the Bible???? did God make a mistake in having John write this? Just looking at this verse- where do you think these people are? Saturn? Neptune? Andromeda?

 

[iamlamad]

Then who are these much people in heaven as written in the Bible???? did God make a mistake in having John write this? Just looking at this verse- where do you think these people are? Saturn? Neptune? Andromeda?

Ha ha! GOOD point! WHERE?

Why can't we just believe John?
Ah! Pesky preconceived glasses! They block anything against what we believe!

 

[iamlamad]

Your belief of people living in heaven, is just not Biblical. Jesus sad so; John 3:13, +
We are earth people, we have work for God to do here and we will receive rewards for faithful service when Jesus Returns. Matthew 16:27

I can only HOPE your belief will not cause you to be left behind when the Bride of Christ is escorted into heaven! However, my scriptural sense tells me you will be left behind. You have ZERO faith in a trip to heaven.

 

[keras]

Then who are these much people in heaven as written in the Bible???? did God make a mistake in having John write this? Just looking at this verse- where do you think these people are? Saturn? Neptune? Andromeda?

The Bible in Revelation 19:2 makes it clear who it is that cries out in verse 1.
Those who were martyred, as we see in Revelation 6:9-11.
You are too sure that a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church will happen, so you misread those verses. To your discredit.

You have ZERO faith in a trip to heaven.

Quite right; but I have 100% faith in the protecting power of the Lord, for all who call upon His Name and trust in Him during all that must happen.

 

[Copperhead]

In Revelation 5:10, some translation use “they” vs “us”. Makes a huge difference on who the elders are.

There are 24 manuscripts on this passage. Of them all, only Codex Alexandrinus does not have the Greek “ego” that is used for “us”, “we”, etc. Thus it comes down to this... believe the 23 manuscripts that have it or the one that doesn’t. The KJV, NKJV, GLT, YLT, etc got it right. The elders are “us” and “we” which makes the elders the redeemed. Not angels or some other beings.

They are there before Yeshua opens the first seal. Game. Set. Match

 

[Acts2:38]

No I just know water baptism is for people who are believers already! It is a public declaration of a reality that already occured inside! One can be saved for years and gorw in grace and knowlerdge without being dunked!

I never even implied water baptism is false! It is required for discipleship- not salvation.

And yet you have refused to give scripture that supports this. Any scripture you did give is completely about something else other than what I asked for.

Acts 2:38 is straight forward sir. You cannot change grammar, context, and definition of words to fit what YOU wish.

Peter states: Repent, and be baptized....
(baptizo- to be immersed; and always means into water unless otherwise stated)

Why Peter? Why are we to repent and be baptized?

Peter: FOR the remission of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit (it is FOR the remission of sins and NOT because of the remission of sins sir like you imply)

What did those people do then?

Acts 2:41 says
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They that what? = That gladly received his word aka the confession aka the rock (Matthew 16:18-19)

What did "they that gladly received the word" do? = Oh, they were baptized. In every instance, unless otherwise directed, that means immersed in water.

What happened AFTER they were baptized? = they were "added unto them"

What is "added unto them"? = Acts 2:47 into the church/kingdom

You CANNOT put on Christ, until you have been baptized = Galatians 3:26-27

If you HAVE NOT put on Christ, then you have NO spiritual blessings such as prayer since you are not IN Christ = Ephesians 1:3

If you have NOT been baptized, you ARE NOT saved Mark 16:16

If you have NOT been baptized, you have NOT received remission of sins Acts 2:38

If you have NOT been baptized, you CANNOT receive the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38

If you have NOT been baptized, you ARE NOT buried with Him into Death to walk a newness of life Romans 6:3-6

If you have NOT been baptized, you have NOT obeyed the gospel = combine 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 with Romans 6:3-5
The gospel doesnt just mean "the good news" as the Greek word states, but in addition to that, we are told that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. So in order to obey that gospel, death burial and resurrection, one needs to do what Romans 6:3-5 states.

Like I said before, I'll say it again (especially since you cannot provide proof in scripture), baptism is necessary for salvation.

Then back to the main topic at hand with you, you still have also not provided proof of different types of saints.

A saint is a saint is a saint in scripture. whether its OT or NT, the people who are saved are saints. There are no separations of them or different titles or what have you.

I have shown you proof after proof after proof straight from scripture. All you have given me is random verses that are FAR from the proof you need, due to your lack of knowledge of the situation at hand in those verses.

I am not an English teacher, and I cannot get you to see proper context and grammar for the topic/verses we discuss. If you are going to twist definitions, contort grammar/context to your belief without honest reading of the verses at hand, how can I go on discussing with you? You can just fit any ol word to your liking, and change any sentence to fit your need. The world doesnt work like that friend.

 

[BABerean2]

Can you find just one scripture that shows us the baptism in the Holy Spirit is "regeneration?" I doubt you can. Why? It is MYTH!

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

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