Pre-Trib Deception in the Last Times

[Pepper77]

T

Here are some other resources on the New Covenant.

David H. J. Ministry (Short Articles on the New Covenant)
David H J Gay Ministry


New Covenant Theology Made Simple: Jeremiah 31:31-34,
David H. J. Gay Ministry

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Thank you!

 

[iamlamad]

Maybe- maybe not! I know for sure Paul did see heaven and it continue to RADICALLY alter his life to serve Christ! Of teh movies and books I have read from these who sdaid they went to heaven- I do not se the kind of devotion that even approaches Paul or even Isaiah who saw the Lord lifted up and His train filling the temple!

But Jesus said

JOhn 3: 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
man here is anthropos- which means human being! So unless "innocent babies" are not human, they need to be born again if they want to experience the kingdom of God!

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Ephesians 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

I do not see any "time of innocence" where people are saved because they don't know better. If you see it in the bible show it!

If god chooses to save aborted babies in a polytheist culture like India that is His business. But He did not say it in Scripture. Just the opposite in fact.

It is a fact, there is an absence of verses speaking about babies. Not one verse that specifically condemns babies or on the other side tells us they will make it to heaven. I wonder why the absence of such a verse?

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son."

So we come to this? Can a baby sin? I think not. I never did believe Calvin.

 

[nolidad]

It is a fact, there is an absence of verses speaking about babies. Not one verse that specifically condemns babies or on the other side tells us they will make it to heaven. I wonder why the absence of such a verse?

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son."

So we come to this? Can a baby sin? I think not. I never did believe Calvin

It is not sin that makes one a sinner- one is a sinner by nature and will eventually sin.

Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

And then JOhn says this:

John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

the only wiggle room I can see in Scripture is here:

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

though it has nothing to do with unborn babies, if God wishes to save the unborn He did not explicitly or implicitly say so in HIs Word.

This age of accountability is an unbiblical concept that still festers in too many churches.

 

[Pepper77]

In 2 Samuel 12:23 David said he would go to be with his dead son. Romans 1:18-20 speaks of the ungodliness and unrighteousness that God‘s wrath will be poured on because God made himself known to people and they are without excuse. A baby or small child does have an excuse.... they never reached a point where God could make himself known to them. And what do we say about all the unborn children who are aborted? Often Scripture speaks in generalities not in specifics. We know God is a God of love justice and mercy, And he will treat all those little ones accordingly. Scripture says we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive according to what we have done whether good or bad. They have done absolutely no wrong and I seen no way that they could be judged any other way. Whether they spend eternity in heaven scripture doesn’t say. But to say that they will be cast into hell for eternal conscious torment makes no sense when we know God is a good loving God. Actually from my studies eternal conscious torment doesn’t hold up to the scrutiny of Scripture anyway.

 

[nolidad]

In 2 Samuel 12:23 David said he would go to be with his dead son. Romans 1:18-20 speaks of the ungodliness and unrighteousness that God‘s wrath will be poured on because God made himself known to people and they are without excuse. A baby or small child does have an excuse.... they never reached a point where God could make himself known to them. And what do we say about all the unborn children who are aborted? Often Scripture speaks in generalities not in specifics. We know God is a God of love justice and mercy, And he will treat all those little ones accordingly. Scripture says we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive according to what we have done whether good or bad. They have done absolutely no wrong and I seen no way that they could be judged any other way. Whether they spend eternity in heaven scripture doesn’t say. But to say that they will be cast into hell for eternal conscious torment makes no sense when we know God is a good loving God. Actually from my studies eternal conscious torment doesn’t hold up to the scrutiny of Scripture anyway.

Well then you have mistudied Scriptures to come to 2 wrong conclusions.

Teh lake of fire and the temporary place of the lost are both places of consciousness and they are in torment!

The lake of fire is a place of never ending torment! Death is destroyed before the lost are thrown into the lake of fire!

So you believe babies are saved by reason of innocence? then when they learn the difference between right and wrong with understanding and they choose wrong the first time- they have lost their salvation by innocence and need to be saved by the blood of Jesus?

Your application of judgment by works is very wrong! No one is saved by good works and no one is lost by bad works.

The judgment seat there si the bema seat and that is forbelievers only! It is a judgment of our works for purpose of reward or lack- never for salvation.

 

[Pepper77]

Well then you have mistudied Scriptures to come to 2 wrong conclusions.

Teh lake of fire and the temporary place of the lost are both places of consciousness and they are in torment!

The lake of fire is a place of never ending torment! Death is destroyed before the lost are thrown into the lake of fire!

So you believe babies are saved by reason of innocence? then when they learn the difference between right and wrong with understanding and they choose wrong the first time- they have lost their salvation by innocence and need to be saved by the blood of Jesus?

Your application of judgment by works is very wrong! No one is saved by good works and no one is lost by bad works.

The judgment seat there si the bema seat and that is forbelievers only! It is a judgment of our works for purpose of reward or lack- never for salvation.

Well then you have mistudied Scriptures to come to 2 wrong conclusions.

Teh lake of fire and the temporary place of the lost are both places of consciousness and they are in torment!

The lake of fire is a place of never ending torment! Death is destroyed before the lost are thrown into the lake of fire!

So you believe babies are saved by reason of innocence? then when they learn the difference between right and wrong with understanding and they choose wrong the first time- they have lost their salvation by innocence and need to be saved by the blood of Jesus?

Your application of judgment by works is very wrong! No one is saved by good works and no one is lost by bad works.

The judgment seat there si the bema seat and that is forbelievers only! It is a judgment of our works for purpose of reward or lack- never for salvation.

You misunderstood what I’m saying about the judgment seat of Christ. We are absolutely saved by grace through faith in the finished work of the cross. I said we would all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Those born of the spirit are judged according to Christ’s righteousness that they have been given by faith. Our sins, the things we have done that are bad have already been judged and taken care of because of Christ’s sacrifice. Our bad things won’t even come up because they’ve been judged already. That’s why there is definitely room to interpret second Corinthian’s 5:10 As being a judgment that the righteous and the unrighteous will stand at. I was always taught it was only for believers, the Bema seat where you receive rewards for your good works. But it says you will receive according to what you’ve done whether good or bad. And then verse 11 goes on to say knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade men. Who is Paul talking about persuading with the terror of the Lord? Not believers. He’s already persuaded them anyway, even if you were to think that’s talking about the fear of the Lord.

I disagree with your interpretation of Rev 20:14-15. It does not say death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire before unbelievers. And even if they were that doesn’t mean that the unbelievers are going to be tormented eternally anyway. I used to believe in an eternal conscious torment until I really started pondering it and then studied it.

I also didn’t say babies are saved because of innocence. I said scripture doesn’t address whether they will spend eternity in heaven. I said they will not be judged as unrighteous and suffer punishment. As well as aborted babies, those who are handicapped and cannot understand the gospel would fall into that category as well. This is my understanding of scripture, what it says about judgement and the nature of God. Whatever happens though, I know that the God of all the earth will do what is right. We aren’t revealed everything, and some things could be symbolic, especially when discussing Revelation.