Pre Trib Bible Study

[yeshuasavedme]

You lost me here as to what you are talking about. Adam lived on the earth. Adam was created on the earth - out of the dust of it. The beasts too were created from the dust of the earth. After death - both body types return to dust. Paradise was on the earth, then maybe under the earth, where the wating saints were till the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Satan wars with earth type of nations - they are not heading to heaven to attack the saints.
The war is going to be on earth.
....

Hi vinsight4u,
Check the Genesis record in the Hebrew language concordance, and see that Genesis means exactly what it says:
1 Adam was created from the dust of the earth

2Adam was set in Eden, in the Garden of God, which is Paradise in which the Tree of Life is in the midst of.

3 Adam was driven out of and cast down to the earth below from Paradise in the third heaven in Eden where the Tree of Life is in the midst of.

4 in Revelation 2:7 Jesus tells us indeed the Tree of Life is in the midst of Paradise/the Garden of Eden, and in 2 Cor 12:2,4, Paul tells us that Paradise is in the third heaven.

And in John 3, Jesus says no man has ascended to heaven [to the throne of God, which Enoch saw in Eden which was made for the Son of Man]"but He that is come down from heaven, even the Son of Man who is in heaven". showing that though Christ is come incarnate, He did not cease being the Son of Man/Deity in heaven, and is there even while in the body of flesh which He is come incarnate in, and His Living Spirit greeted the thief on the cross who entered Paradise above in the third heaven, the moment he died; because Jesus bought him on the cross;
and he -the thief- believed and "did not see death" =he did not go to Sheol and was not held captive in Sheol where all the righteous were until Jesus descended and loosed them from there to go to the City of God =Zion above.


Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus Christ is the Living Spirit come in flesh, and the thief on the cross went directly into the presence of the Living Spirit in Paradise when he died on the cross, because of Jesus' Atonement.

No one who dies in faith since Jesus atoned for our sins goes to Sheol below, and Paradise was never, ever, ever, cast down to Sheol!!!!

 

[Biblewriter]

I agree with you on the timing interpretation of the rapture ...
I believe that you have made an awesome case for a pretribulation rapture which I happen to agree with!

He is an excellent Bible Scholar whose opinions are well documented with Scripture.

Thank you both, with so much "flack," it sometimes seems doubtful that it is worth the effort. But then, I see that a few are listening.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[yeshuasavedme]

HI yeshuasavedme,

I know that Solomon considered God's dwellingplace as in heaven. He wanted God to hear him in His dwelling place in heaven.

I'm thinking....I will have to find it and get back to you. Wasn't there something in the Psalms about dwelling in His tabernacle?

What does Psalm 19:4 mean to you?

The break in that section should come at the end of the line before this:

שומה suwm [He hath] set
אהל 'ohel [His] tabernacle/dwelling place/habitation/home
שמש shemesh [in the[ sun.

Which goes with the following verse about the sun's course which he runs in the circuit of the heavens.

There are many passages that connect this subject together as a given for where the created temple is set in the created heavens.
Everyone once knew this, but changed His truth to a lie, over time, which is why we see so much ancient sun worship which began as honoring God in His temple and praising Him for the beneficial light he sends forth from it.

This hymn in the Dead Sea Scrolls in my copy published in 1994, translated by Wilfred G.E. Watson, on page 355, says this:
Col XX (=XII + frags. 54 + 60)
line 4
[For the Instruc]tor, praises and prayers to bow down and entreat always,
from period to period:
when the light comes from His residence;
in the positions of the day, according to the regulation,
in accordance to the laws of the great luminary;
at the return of the evening, at the departure of light,
when the realm of the shades begins; at the appointed moment of the night, in their stations;
at the return of dawn, at the moment when it withdraws to its quarters before the light;
at the departure of night when day enters; continually.


http://www.christianforums.com/t7259341-4/#post48363925
This is speaking of the praises and prayers offered to God from dawn to dawn, “when the light comes from His residence to the return of dawn“. Following in the hymns are some of the prayers and and fragments for the entire day and night period .

I have bought myself a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls, but you can see this particular line discussed in an online book @ http://books.google.com/books?id=lc6...um=1&ct=result

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi yeshuasavedme,

I'm trying to get quickly to today on the posts on here. I don't see where you addressed the idea that if heaven is on the sun - as in God's temple is located there, what about the full wrath plagues -one of them will be poured out on the sun?

The sun is not heaven, and it is not Eden -which Eden is where Paradise is.
The sun is set in the heavens -Genesis 1. The Temple God made and set in the sun on day 4 of creation week is "riding the heavens" in its circuit -Psalm 18- Douay- Rheims

The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands. 2 Day to day uttereth speech, and night to night sheweth knowledge. 3 There are no speeches nor languages, where their voices are not heard. 4 Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the world.5 He hath set his tabernacle in the sun: and he as a bridegroom coming out of his bridechamber, Hath rejoiced as a giant to run the way:6 His going out is from the end of heaven, And his circuit even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide himself from his heat.

The sun and stars regulate our seasons, the moon our months.
The sun flares do not come from within the core of the sun, but are outside the core. The sun itself, at its core, is the same size as the moon, states Enoch, so the total area outside that core spans hundreds of thousands of miles, and within that, great disturbances go on by electro-magnetic forces and connections with the stars -which are also electric], which cause earthquakes and geomagnetic storms on earth -among other things.

Read about the electric sun on thunderbolts website by Wallace Thornhill -here is a youtube video of a film they did. Thunderbolts of the Gods | Official Movie - YouTube
They are not a Bible believing site and they know nothing about the temple of God set in the sun, but they have the facts to back up the electric universe and sun [which is biblical fact, beginning in Genesis 1]; they just know that the sun is electric in nature, as the universe is.

When Enoch went into the temple of God in the vision, which is that temple set in the sun, he said there were no delights of life therein [not Paradise], and it was as hot as fire and as cold as ice, with the path of the stars above it's ceiling ... the water is mentioned, above the ceiling.
Enoch also said the walls were built of tessalated [cut] crystal [diamonds]....and pillars of fire.
I used to think it meant [rock[ crystal, but it is now known that liquid diamond exists on planets in creation as oceans with "icebergs" of diamonds floating in those diamond oceans -and that makes much more sense than "rock crystal". The cut diamond walls of the temple set in the sun govern the light of day 1 of creation week, by day, and refract it back out to the heavens as the sun travels its ordained path/course/ circuit in the heavens.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[WhatisTheTruth7]

Jesus numerous times in the scripture says he would not delay his coming; Hebrews 10:37 as an ex. In Revelation Jesus says he will come quickly. So here we are some 2000 years later and people are looking for him to come. I submitt either the scripture is right and he came quickly and done so or Jesus Lied. The Famous 2 Peter verse about a day is 1000 years and 1000 years is a day is flawed. I can start a new post debunking this passage with other multiple scriptures...

 

[Bible2]

WhatisTheTruth7 said in post 90:

Jesus numerous times in the scripture says he would not delay his coming; Hebrews 10:37 as an ex. In Revelation Jesus says he will come quickly. So here we are some 2000 years later and people are looking for him to come. I submitt either the scripture is right and he came quickly and done so or Jesus Lied.

From the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some two thousand years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Jesus' 2nd coming from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some two thousand years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming, he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming, he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, he will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

WhatisTheTruth7 said in post 90:

The Famous 2 Peter verse about a day is 1000 years and 1000 years is a day is flawed.

No verse of scripture is flawed (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4).

 

[iamlamad]

Keep waiting for it then...you'll find out the rapture is on the last day.

Furthermore "one in Christ" refers to salvation...and makes the point it makes no difference who you are...God will save you.

Lastly...knowing when one is saved...they become a spiritual Jew in reality...they become citizens of the "Israel of God"...therefore they are of the 144,000 of the "spiritual Israel" that is made up of every tribe kindred, nation and tongue...that no man can number!!!

You'll.. know when the time comes...Paul said it was a mystery...obviously, you haven't figured it out yet...

Hmmm. You are right in part: Jesus did say over and over in John 6 that He would raise them up on "the last day." That last day is the day of the 7th vial in chapter 16. That is the day the two witnesses will rise and that is also the say ALL the Old Testament saints will rise. It is the last 24 hour period of the age. So there WILL be a resurrection then, and also a "rapture," for they will be caught up into heaven as guests for the wedding.

But Paul was very clear on the timing of his rapture. It would be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Those in darkness would get "sudden destruction" - the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising - and those alive and remaining will be caught up a microsecond later so the earthquake does not affect them. Where is that earthquake in Rev? It is the earthquake at the 6th seal. The raptured church is seen around the throne room in chapter 7. John has not even started the 70th week yet, for it begins at the 7th seal. Therefore, but John and Paul are VERY pretrib.

Therefore, may I suggest you begin watching for the PRETRIB rapture? How many times Did Jesus say "watch?"

Question: if someone is expecting to see the Beast first, can they really have FAITH for a pretrib rapture? I don't see how. Their faith is that they will see the Beast. So my second question is, How can they be raptured when they have NO FAITH for it? Everything we get from heaven we get by faith. I am convinced the rapture will be the same. I am also convinced, if someone is determined to see the Beast, GOD will not override their desire and faith. Therefore, the belief in the timing of Paul's rapture is a serious thing. Lamad.

 

[iamlamad]

From the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some two thousand years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Jesus' 2nd coming from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some two thousand years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming, he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming, he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, he will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).



No verse of scripture is flawed (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4).

Sorry, Bible2, but you are about 7 years off in your gathering. Paul's gathering will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Read the last verse of Rev. 6 to see when that is. Did you forget that John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in chapter 7, about 7 years before Jesus returns on the white horse?

Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

Hi yeshuasavedme,


The church is here till the day of the Lord.
The day of the Lord is not the great tribulation time against Israel by the beast.


day of the Lord
day of Christ
day of our Lord Jesus Christ
day of His coming
day of His appearing


2 Cor. 1:14
"As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus."

1 Cor. 1:5
"That in everything ye..."
1:6
"Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:"
1:7
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
1:8
"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

=====day of redemption

Ephesians 4:30
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Luke 21:28
"And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Sorry, but John TELLS us when the Day begins. Just read the last verse of chapter 6.

The Old Testament tells us the Day will be a day of Destruction of the earth and to destroy the sinners out of it. Where do we see the first destruction of the earth? It is right after "the day of His wrath has come." It is the first trumpet judgment in chapter 8. It is the beginning of destruction of the earth. It is also the beginning of His wrath.

Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

I think the peace and safety part has to do with what takes place in Rev. 11 after the two witnesses are slain by the beast.

time to send gifts to one another
/party
celebrate
make it a holiday

Understand that Rev. 11 is just a story being told, John does not see the events as to the resurrection of the witnesses. He was only told what hour comes when they do rise. the - earthquake hour - the same hour as a great earthquake
The party time is not the same hour as when they rise.
They rise at the 7th trumpet, as then is the earthquake hour - third woe.

Sorry, I disagree. They show up just before the abomination in chapter 11. They testify for 1260 days, which will take them to 1 1/2 days before the 7th VIAL that ends the week. they will lie dead for 3 1/2 days and then will be resurrected with all the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial. that is the "last day" of the age and of the week. the verses, 11:4-11:13 are written as a parenthesis. They show up 3 1/2 days before the abomination and before the 7th trumpet, which sounds at the same time as the abomination. The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week. The earthquake at their resurrection is the same earthquake at the 7th vial.

The woman, those living in Judea, flee the instant they see the abomination....12:6.

Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

I agree with you on the timing interpretation of the rapture . I believe that the scripture ( when taken the bible as a whole ) teaches pre tribulation . However , we as Christians shouldn't be dogmatic on this issue. All sides of the camps have their reasons for the various interpretations on the timing of the rapture . I am under that the belief that we should all respect everyone's opinions .

I believe that you have made an awesome case for a pretribulation rapture which I happen to agree with!

I disagree. I think the bible is VERY clear on the timing of the pretrib rapture. Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord just three verses after His classic rapture verse. The suddenly is the rapture in the previous chapter. Those in the darkeness get sudden destruction. That is an earthquake caused by the dead in christ rising. Those in the Light get "salvation" and get to live together with Him - just like "so shall we ever be with the Lord," only different words. So Paul is teaching us that the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord; these are back to back events. Matt. 27 says, "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened." When the two witnesses rise, there is an earthquake. I am convinced when the dead in christ rise, it will cause a worldwide earthquake. that is the sudden destruction Paul speaks of.

John is in perfect agreement with Paul. He saw the raptured church in heaven in Rev. 7, before he has even started the 70th week. So the bible definitely teaches a pretrib rapture. But it is not where we have been taught to look. there is no rapture in Rev. 4:1 - that is JOHN being caught up. Lamad

 

[GUANO]

The 2 Witnesses are the Bible. They preached in sackcloth for 1260 years until the printing press was invented and they could be heard by the common man—and raised into the heavens (the high places of the collective mind). This was the same time the 'Woman' was hiding while the Beast was in it's full power (during the 'dark' ages). The two witnesses are two trees which represent the people who put their trust in the LORD (for they shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water...), of which some branches may be cut off and others grafted in. Their fruit is pressed into oil (spirit) which then is passed to 2 lamp-stands (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet) where the flame produces light (knowledge/awareness). Other visions have these two trees on either side of the great river which is the WORD OF GOD.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 92:

Jesus did say over and over in John 6 that He would raise them up on "the last day."

In John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

When Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

~

The last "days" began in the first century AD, with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2), and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last "days" can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8), of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

iamlamad said in post 92:

But Paul was very clear on the timing of his rapture. It would be the trigger for the Day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 92:

Those in darkness would get "sudden destruction"

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the two witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry, because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the two witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the seven vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the second-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

iamlamad said in post 92:

The raptured church is seen around the throne room in chapter 7.

In Revelation 7:9-15, the great multitude will be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage. This will be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it will be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

*******

iamlamad said in post 95:

The woman, those living in Judea, flee the instant they see the abomination....12:6.

In Revelation 12, the "woman" represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

[Bible2]

GUANO said in post 97:

The 2 Witnesses are the Bible.

In Revelation 11:3-12, the two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah. For the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4. the "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That's why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

GUANO said in post 97:

They preached in sackcloth for 1260 years until the printing press was invented and they could be heard by the common man—and raised into the heavens (the high places of the collective mind).

Regarding "1260 years", are you thinking of the 42 months, 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time"? If so, they're all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days. And the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days. Similarly, the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11-12 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5).

The literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters were never fulfilled during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.

 

[GUANO]

In Revelation 11:3-12, the two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah. For the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4. the "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That's why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).



Regarding "1260 years", are you thinking of the 42 months, 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time"? If so, they're all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days. And the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days. Similarly, the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11-12 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5).

The literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters were never fulfilled during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.

Moses and Elijah are two of the witnesses... The the ones that brought fourth plagues were Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John, and others... Prophecies directed toward political entities should be given the day year principal because polities have such long lifespans. Per Ezekiel.

The whole premise of a three and half year prophecy comes from Daniels seventy sevens but the problem with that is that the one who confirmed the covenant with many and caused the sacrifice to cease was Christ himself because he fulfilled the sacrifice and thus made any practice of it spiritually desolate. I am no hard core historicist but the fact remains that they are the only group that has made a successful prediction using Daniel and revelation. Most notably over 50 scholars predicting the French revolution over 200 years in advance.

Beasts are polities and the foliage they eat is men and their fruits. We don't fight against flesh and blood but principalities. Corporate entities such as nations, states and other polities are powerful spirits with their roots in Babylonian idolatry and sorcery. The occultists themselves call them egregori and equate them as the offspring of the nephilim as written in the book of Enoch which is highly Chaldean in its writings...

God sits outside time, and so does his word, and so does the spirit of prophecy. Why wouldn't the bible contain an image of itself? The prophet sees an awesome sight of two trees, he is seeing the source of the word of god, which is the exploits and words of gods people.... The very next thing god tells the prophet after he sees the awesome sight and asks what it is is this is the word of god unto zerubabel...

I would give more exact references but I'm posting from iPad...