Pre Trib Bible Study

[vinsight4u]

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[yeshuasavedme]

The harpers are in heaven, but the 144,000 are redeemed among men.
The harpers are not where the 144,000 are.

The Lamb is where the 144,000 are on the earth's mount Sion.

The 144,000 are going to learn a song coming out of heaven down to mount Sion -where other men are.

The 144,000 are not redeemed among angels, elders, four beasts; but are on the earth with the Lamb.

Notice too that John is starting a whole new Lamb story.

a Lamb

John did not see the exact same description as he saw in Rev. 5 as to a Lamb.

Have you looked at how in Rev. 14:6 is where John tells us that he saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven? This means the trumpets were already shown to him at least as far as Rev. 8's ending.

from
Rev. 8:13
an angel fying Rev. 14:6 another angel fly

These two angel scenes are not for the same type of Lamb description.

Hi vinsight4u.
I cannot agree because Mount Zion of the heavenly realm is where Jesus is, and they are with Him and before His Throne, there, and they are redeemed "out of/off" the earth.
That is where the City of God is, on Mount Zion. It is also the same Mount Eden, where Adam was set in the "rest of God", which is Paradise where the Tree of Life is in the midst of, and which is in the third heaven -and the heavens were stretched out from earth on day 2 of creation week, and for that reason, the City of God that Satan leads a rebellion against when they ascend to the city of the Saints after he is released from Sheol is in that "breadth of earth" -heaven.

Also, the last harvest of earth's sons of God redeemed from Adam's seed is typed in Tabernacles; the first in Pentecost, and those are called Firstfruits of that harvest.
Firstfruits of that harvest must be translated to glory without dying, for that harvest is the harvest of sons of God who do not die, and there are no resurrections of the righteous after the tribulation ends.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed apo men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[sdowney717]

and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:20-21

Jesus will remain in heaven until it is time for Him to return to earth at the end of the age, at which time he destroys the antichrist,m and the Resurrection of the dead take place.

After the tribulation...


JLB

Yes Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation and this is when the rapture occurs.

In fact Jesus does not return and there is no rapture gathering UNTIL after the antichrist is revealed as Paul says in 2 Thess 2

The other thing about this time which may be confusing some, is Jesus returns when people are saying Peace and Safety.

The Day of the Lord
1 Thess
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

They may be saying peace and safety at last due to some Antichrist victory or trickery but it is still part of the tribulations time. Paul says we are NOT of the night that that Day should overtake us as a thief. True followers, elect and chosen of God will see the signs of the times and be aware He is near to returning.

The Day of the Lord is when Jesus returns. Jesus in Matt 24 lays out the entire event schedule. The verses farther on where one is taken and another is left are further explanation in depth of what He already said would happen earlier in the chapter about Him sending out His angels to gather up His people. He is not talking out of sequence about a pre trib rapture after He already talked about His return..

The gathering to Him that Paul explains is the rapture and it is also the Day of the Lord.


2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


firstly some apparently thought they had missed the gathering to Him, that is rapture event. Paul assures them that they have not missed the rapture. Paul goes into details about what MUST occur before the gathering occurs ON THAT DAY. That is the Day of the Lord.

The one who knows holds Satan back, the restrainer is Arch Angel Michael. Michael has been restraining and rebuking Satan for a long time and Michael is shown as being the one singular he. Holy Spirit is not nor ever does with draw back from earth pulling his People with Him as people seem to think. Nor is the one he the group of believers on earth restraining Satan.

Why would Paul be addressing a church of that time with this instruction of rapture event if they all thought they would be raptured before any tribulation event and had somehow missed out?

It makes no logical sense!

 

[sdowney717]

2 Thess 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,


As Jesus puts it in Matt 24, many will deceive many about the end times and about what happens and also be active deceivers in the end times.

As you can see there are many talkers and deceivers about the end times. The pre trib rapture is a deception which goes contrary to what Jesus spoke. And we have plenty of warnings about these last days and deceivers.

The falling away is a great apostasy of which the apostles all wrote about the last days. Perilous times will come warned Paul. Peter said scoffers will come scoffing about His promised return. The apostasy will manifest in churches where false believers will not want to hear the truth. Plenty of warnings and few today have any logical grip on scriptures. The forums are full of doubters and false ideas about what it is to be christian. Divorces and remarriages are the norm. Godliness is just about extinct.

As bad as it is now, God promises it will get worse and worse right until the end. Evil men and deceivers will grow worse and worse.

These false believers are actually going to view the antichrist as Jesus returned! Why do you suppose Jesus warns us this way!

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

v28 is the great supper of God mentioned in Rev where an angel calls all the birds of the air to feast on the flesh of the rebels..

And Paul writes about antichrist thus

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

They are talking about a real place, some kind of building. Not your temple of the body.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

2 Thess 2
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,deceivers.
...
The falling away is a great apostasy of which the apostles all wrote about the last days. Perilous times will come warned Paul.

Fact: the deception that Paul was talking about to the Thessalonians was the false lettters being circulated making the claim that the day of tribulation was at hand, and they would go through it.
He reminded them he had taught them that the tribulation is not at hand because the removal of the Church had not happened. As long as the Church is on earth, that day cannot come, said Paul.

The Church must be gathered to Jesus in heaven's temple and remain there, as pr the doctrine of the ingathering to heaven of the sons of God, in the first harvest from off earth, which is rehearsed in the Living Oracles committed only to the namesake people of the New Man name, Israel.
Paul reminds them of the removal of the Church that must happen.
Any other such a thing as a made up "apostasy" -when the whole world is apostate from the beginning- is fooishness to the extreme, and bending Scripture to fit a doctrine that is contrary to the revelations of the Word from the beginning.

 

[sdowney717]

They had not gone through it yet because Paul said certain conditions had yet to be met. That is the revealing of Antichrist personage.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What is the Day?
It is the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christs return.

What happens on that Day?
A tremendous amount of destruction of the ungodly and the gathering rapture of His saints to meet Him in the air. He comes with His saints from heaven, the dead in Christ are raised up, then we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord go up to meet Him.

When does this Day occur?
Immediately after the distress tribulation of those days
After the Antichrist is working on the earth deceiving them to follow the beast. All those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the earth.

 

[sdowney717]

The Great Apostasy
1 Tim

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

The Holy Spirit expressly states
Well you better pay attention, when God speaks in His word it comes to pass as He has said.

For example departing from the faith in the end times lists a couple things that would happen. Many other demonic doctrines are also out there.

Jesus says MANY shall deceive MANY.

2 Tim
3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.


12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

 

[sdowney717]

VirtueOnline - News

A current great apostasy of the Episcopal Church has refused to embrace Jesus Christ as the only way to the Father.

The great Apostasy is coming along nicely in many churches key doctrines are no longer believed, and strange new ones are added on.

Eventually this will open the door to the revealing of the Antichrist, His second coming, our rapture and destruction of the wicked in the Day of the Lord in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God or are not obedient to the Gospel of His dear Son.

 

[sdowney717]

"Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." (Luke 17:28-30

On the same day Lot left the city, the destruction came!

Even so it shall be on that DAY when Jesus is revealed, His people will be taken in Rapture and the destruction will fall on the wicked.

 

[sdowney717]

More great apostasy in the church

"BUT ALSO in those days there arose false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among yourselves, who will subtly and stealthily introduce heretical doctrines (destructive heresies), even denying and disowning the Master Who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings; because of them the true Way will be maligned and defamed.

"And in their covetousness (lust, greed) they will exploit you with false, cunning arguments. From of old the sentence of condemnation for them has not been idle; their destruction (eternal misery) has not been asleep. For God did not even spare angels that sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them to be kept there in pits of gloom till the judgment and their doom. And He spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven other persons, when He brought a flood upon the world of ungodly [people]. And He condemned to ruin and extinction the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to ashes [and thus] set them forth as an example to those who would be ungodly." (2 Peter 2:1-6;

 

[Interplanner]

Keep in mind these things were not distant future to Paul or Jude or Peter. They were said of things happening soon, if not right around them.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The Great Apostasy
1 Tim

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, ...

You don't need to shout.
You cannot take Scriptures out of context and try to make up a doctrine with them pieced together that is contradicted by the Word itself.

2 Thess 2 is speaking of the gathering together unto the LORD in heaven, of believers, before the Day of the LORD =the Tribulation- can come, and before the man of sin can be revealed.
The removal of the Church from the earth has no connection to 1 Timothy passage in relation to the gathering together unto the LORD that the Thess. thought they had missed and that the tribulation was at hand, which Paul reminded them about his teaching from the Scriptures about, and that the Church must be removed from the earth before the Day of the LORD can come.

Your manner of trying to make up a doctrine by quilting together totally different subjects is like using the Word when it says: "...Judas went out and hung himself"; with: "go thou and do likewise". They are just not contextually related.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Paul knew exactly that the nation of Israel would be saved and return to God and be brought back to God through the tribulation, and PAul knew the Word that teaches that the Church must be removed from earth before that can happen.
The removal of the Church from the earth is said by Paul to be the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in" =be ingathered to the "barn" which is heaven [Haggai chapter 2 is specific about that]; and that this is the age of the preaching of the Gospel so that souls can be saved and the number of the Gentiles saved comes into its fulness so that the sons of God of the first harvest can be ingathered from off earth and go right back to where Adam got cast down from, which is Mount Eden, the third heaven, where Paradise is and where the Tree of Life is in the midst of.

Then God prepares the earth for the second harvest of sons of God which is to come at the end of the millennial reign [with the firstfruits of that harvest raptured to glory mid-trib, so that the last harvest overtakes the gleanings of the first, as Scriptures teach].

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[yeshuasavedme]

Hi yeshuasavedme,

...Rev. 15 as to the the seven angels that come out of the temple in heaven (not the area of the sun)...

Hi vinsight4u,
Why do you say the temple in heaven is not the area of the sun when the Word does say the temple of God is set in the sun?

if you

compare ...the seven angels that come out of the temple in heaven ...with the being in Ezekiel 9 that sets a mark on people, maybe you can see that afterwards -they do not sit down with Jesus Christ as His wife, but instead would return to God to give their report of how many of Israel they had just sealed for protection.

The man who is an angel in Daniel 10 and in Ezekiel 9 and in Revelation 15 is one and the same, IMO, and is Enoch, who was taken to Eden above to rule over the angels as a glorified son of Adam adopted into the Living Spirit [born again in Christ] and is a redeemed "restored to son-ship, son of God of human being kind", and as such is indeed [with the other 6 angels in Rev 15 who come out of the temple in heaven with the seven bowls of wrath] "the wife/ishyah" of Christ, who have long ago taken their place as priests of God standing before the Son of Man in the temple in heaven.

The other six have to be part of the "First of Firstfruits" of adopted sons of God raised from the dead who came out of their graves with Christ's resurrection to ascend mid-morning with Him to heaven's temple as the wave offering of First of Firstfruits of the first harvest, who are perfected in spirit and body of adoption =born from above, into the Living Spirit and regenerated in bodies, and made priests of God standing before the Son of Man in heaven.
To be an adopted son of God is to be His "Ishyah" [translated bride and wife in the Word of God], which belongs exclusively to those who are taken from.


Everyone who is redeemed in regeneration of Spirit and then, at the change, in regeneration of the flesh is the "wife/ishyah" of Christ, as to being one in spirit, bone, flesh, and blood in His new man name;
and that name is "Israel", not Adam;
but because the spiritualized Woman/Zion above, got no seed from Adam for building up Zion for the Glory because, in Adam, all we who are the seed created in his loins and named in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world to come forth in our pre-ordained season from the loins of our fathers -so as to be sons of God -stones- to build up Zion above for the Glory, died in the loins of the firstborn son of earth;
and so the inheritance is not lost, Enoch was adopted into the Living Spirit, translated to glory and serves in Eden above with the angels there as a priest serving in the temple of heaven, which makes Enoch a "son and "Ishyah/wife/ of Christ who was to come in flesh, and a brother of all the redeemed from Adam who will be named ISrael, when they get their new man flesh bodies of adoption, while Enoch is always named "Adam" according to the law of firstborn son of a barren widow..

 

[vinsight4u]

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[bibletruth469]

The six part series, titled "The timing of the rapture, part 1-part 6" demonstrates that a pre-trib Bible study is indeed possible, for it is based, in its entirety, on the Bible.

Nor is it based on scriptures that can somehow be wrested to seem to indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. It is based, in its entirety, on scriptures that clearly state the facts under discussion.

But I must add a word of caution. Although the Bible very explicitly states that there will be a rapture, it simply does not explicitly state when this will happen. All positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of the meanings of various scriptures. Pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath trib, and post trib are all interpretations of scripture, not scripture. While I am very decided in my position on the timing of the rapture, and while I am persuaded that a true understanding of scripture can lead to no other conclusion, I readily admit that this is an interpretation.

And all people that imagine that their interpretation of the meaning of scripture is equivalent to explicitly stated scripture are fools.

I agree with you on the timing interpretation of the rapture . I believe that the scripture ( when taken the bible as a whole ) teaches pre tribulation . However , we as Christians shouldn't be dogmatic on this issue. All sides of the camps have their reasons for the various interpretations on the timing of the rapture . I am under that the belief that we should all respect everyone's opinions .

I believe that you have made an awesome case for a pretribulation rapture which I happen to agree with!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I agree with you on the timing interpretation of the rapture . I believe that the scripture ( when taken the bible as a whole ) teaches pre tribulation . However , we as Christians shouldn't be dogmatic on this issue. All sides of the camps have their reasons for the various interpretations on the timing of the rapture . I am under that the belief that we should all respect everyone's opinions .

I believe that you have made an awesome case for a pretribulation rapture which I happen to agree with!

He is an excellent Bible Scholar whose opinions are well documented with Scripture.

But my own opinion on the rapture's importance for us is that it is our hope and promise and the revelation of our future entrance into the "Assembly of the sons of God in heaven", and when we enter into our inheritance -which Adam lost and never achieved for his own seed- as restored sons of God adopted into the Firstborn of earth's name and regenerated in bodies and serving from His heavenly temple with the holy angels and in His New Man name, over the earth below.

It is all one story of God's plan for our redemption back to glory. From the time of the fall, He told us we would be restored, and the kingdom restored.
To be restored in the name of the New Man is to be put back in Eden above, where Adam was cast down from and where the tree of Life is in the midst of the Paradise of God -which Paradise Adam lost is in the the third heaven, and the heavens were stretched out from right here on this earth between the divided waters on day 2 of creation week...

God formed us to "plant the heavens", but that was lost in Adam; but in the New Man name, we do take our places as sons of God, "planted" in His heavens.
For now, since the fall, we are kept out of heaven in these Adam flesh, defiled temple, bodies, but when we are in our adoption bodies, we do go right into the "Assemblies of the sons of God in the heavens".
-And that is what redemption is about and why we look forward with hope to our gathering together unto Christ and our entrance into His heavenly temple at the rapture, for our consecration celebration as priests of the heavenly temple, standing before the Son of Man, to serve Him, there.