Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Breckmin]

Oh, don't get me started on APOSTASIA and 2 Thess 2.

APO=to move away
STASIA=place of standing

"apostasia" is where we get our word "apostate" or apostatize and it literally means
a defection from or a revolt against. Look it up on wikipedia or anywhere.
An apostasy is not being raptured up into the clouds. It is a falling away from
a belief system. Does it make sense to say "our gathering will not come until we
have gathered with Him?" Simple answer. No.
The mainstream church (unfortunately possibly lead by RC's) will fall away and the
anti-Christ will be revealed. A false prophet (future Pope maybe?) will be in collusion
with a world president of some kind (united nations future president?)
The apostasy of the church is necessary in order to single out and kill radical
born-again Christians throughout the world. The mainstream church will turn
against the "true" church (the body of Christ) and we will be martyred.

Do not be deceived, for the Day of the Lord and our gathering together
will Him will not come until the apostasy of the mainstream church comes
and the anti-Christ is revealed.

It is really simple in the text. Only pre-tribbers have to complicate it.

The point of the passage is "our being gathered to Christ".

It is also about "let know one deceive you for it will not happen until what?

What did Paul say our gathering to Christ is? A DEPARTURE!

2Th 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

Which is EXACTLY why your interpretation of the verse is WRONG. You
stopped at verse one and you didn't read the next verses.

1Now we request you, (A)brethren, with regard to the (B)coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our (C)gathering together to Him,

2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a (D)spirit or a (E)message or a (F)letter as if from us, to the effect that (G)the day of the Lord (H)has come. 3(I)Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [a](J)apostasy comes first, and the (K)man of lawlessness is revealed, the (L)son of destruction,

How does it make any sense to have "let no one in any way deceive you
for it will not come unless the "departure" comes first???????????"

The (gathering) departure won't happen unless the departure comes first????????

If you read it plainly in the text it makes sense that it is an apostasy
from church doctrine. If you read it your way you have "concerning
the departure" let know one deceive you because it won't happen
until the "departure" comes first??????????

But that is what the pretrib position does. It makes a mess of the
text so that you have to separate things and put them out of order.
Let me guess, it's the 2nd Coming, and the rapture (somehow 7 years
apart), and the rapture then becomes crossed out so you can make
sense of it to say that the rapture comes first...

Incredible manipulation of the text.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[ezek33]

The apostasy is when the church turns from the truth. People that say it is the removal of the church through the rapture are hard core pretrib zealots that do not care what the truth of scripture really is.

 

[Breckmin]

The apostasy is when the church turns from the truth. People that say it is the removal of the church through the rapture are hard core pretrib zealots that do not care what the truth of scripture really is.

I haven't wanted to get too deep into this, but the reason most pretrib
scholars won't take such a weak misuse of apostasy is also because of
the Greek language in verse one. They're not separated but they are
together 1. "erOtaO de humeis adelphos huper ho parouisa ho kurios
hemies iEsous christos kai hemies episunagOgE epi autos" all refers to
one event (the Second Coming) which would make no sense it the
text to say that the Second Coming must come before the Second Coming. The "hemies episunagOgE" connects with the conj "kai" which
make it "and by" our gathering with Him which makes it all one event.

Yet somewhere, someone with an agenda will be sure to insert 7 years
in there to make one event two events to fit their theology....

~Michael

 

[Breckmin]

all refers to
one event (the Second Coming) which would make no sense it the
text to say that the Second Coming must come before the Second Coming.

Yep. Talking to someone in the real world and I messed that up
pretty badly... It DOES make sense to say the falling away from
faith and the man of lawlessness is revealed must take place
before the Second Coming. It doesn't make sense to say the
rapture must come before the rapture...

See, I'm not only a nobody, "I'm a nobody who makes mistakes"

Michael

 

[Covenant Heart]

When You Have To Get 'Rapture' Out Of 'Apostasia,'

things can't be going well.

Friberg:

a condition resulting from changing loyalties revolt, desertion; as a religious technical term; (1) apostasy, rebellion (2TH 2.3); (2) defection, abandonment (AC 21.21)

Thayer's:

a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3;

Louw-Nida:

to rise up in open defiance of authority, with the presumed intention to overthrow it or to act in complete opposition to its demands - 'to rebel against, to revolt, to engage in insurrection, rebellion.' avni,stamai: pro. ga.r tou,twn tw/n h`merw/n avne,sth Qeuda/j ... kai. evge,nonto eivj ouvde,n 'some time ago Theudas rebelled ... but they came to nothing' or '... the movement died out' Ac 5.36

[Directly copied, no editing].

Now--let's hear about the plain, ordinary sense of words again...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

When You Have To Get 'Rapture' Out Of 'Apostasia,'

things can't be going well.

Friberg:



Thayer's:



Louw-Nida:



[Directly copied, no editing].

Now--let's hear about the plain, ordinary sense of words again...

No its departure... strongs 646 noun form 868 verb form

verb form defines the word....
examples
Luke 2:37,4:13,13:27
Acts 12:10, 15:38, 19:9,22:29,
2 cor 12:8
2 tim 2:19
Heb 3:12
1 tim 4:1

departure from what is in context

 

[ezek33]

As Brekmin said if you take the view that Bro in Christ and Jen have taken what you are actually saying is the 2nd coming must come before the 2nd coming it simply does not make since. Further more it is 646 in the strongs and the fact that Bro in Christ knows that then he should also know that it actually means defection from the truth, to fall away, to forsake. The apostasy is the church turning from the truth, there is no I mean no reason for anyone to refer to the apostasy as the rapture or a removal or a departure from the earth.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

As Brekmin said if you take the view that Bro in Christ and Jen have taken what you are actually saying is the 2nd coming must come before the 2nd coming it simply does not make since. Further more it is 646 in the strongs and the fact that Bro in Christ knows that then he should also know that it actually means defection from the truth, to fall away, to forsake. The apostasy is the church turning from the truth, there is no I mean no reason for anyone to refer to the apostasy as the rapture or a removal or a departure from the earth.

the greek word for faith is not in the 2 thes 2:3

in context the departure is the Mystery 1 cor 15:51-54
that you refuse...

Jews are looking forward to the Day of the Lord.. ezek 30:3
The church is not .. 1 thes 5:1-2

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

When I first came in Eschatology 5 years ago, there were only a few post trib believers..and I wasn't one of them at the time. I am encouraged to see that there are more and more all of the time, which shows me that the Holy Spirit is doing His job!! A person has to have a "teachable Spirit" in order to receive the truth. What I mean by "teachable" is, He teaches us, we don't teach ourselves which allows confusion to enter in. I have a guideline that I employ..if the Word doesn't flow...then it isn't so!! There isn't any confusion or doubt when the Holy Spirit unfolds the Word.
JOHN 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1 JOHN 4
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the Spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 CORINTHIANS 14
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints...If God isn't doing it, that only leaves one person, Satan.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It is also about "let know one deceive you for it will not happen until what?



Which is EXACTLY why your interpretation of the verse is WRONG. You
stopped at verse one and you didn't read the next verses.

1Now we request you, (A)brethren, with regard to the (B)coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our (C)gathering together to Him,

2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a (D)spirit or a (E)message or a (F)letter as if from us, to the effect that (G)the day of the Lord (H)has come. 3(I)Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [a](J)apostasy comes first, and the (K)man of lawlessness is revealed, the (L)son of destruction,

How does it make any sense to have "let no one in any way deceive you
for it will not come unless the "departure" comes first???????????"

The (gathering) departure won't happen unless the departure comes first????????

NO, silly! The DAY OF THE LORD won't happen unless the DEPARTURE comes first!

If you read it plainly in the text it makes sense that it is an apostasy
from church doctrine. If you read it your way you have "concerning
the departure" let know one deceive you because it won't happen
until the "departure" comes first??????????

But that is what the pretrib position does. It makes a mess of the
text so that you have to separate things and put them out of order.
Let me guess, it's the 2nd Coming, and the rapture (somehow 7 years
apart), and the rapture then becomes crossed out so you can make
sense of it to say that the rapture comes first...

Incredible manipulation of the text.

In Christ,
Michael

YES! What YOU have done is indeed an incredible manipulation of the text!

REv 6 confirms it.

1. Tribulation (seals 1-4) for the past 2000 years
2. Rapture (seal #5) giving of white robes, clothes of immortality
3. Sun/moon darken "FOR THE DAY OF WRATH HAS COME" (Seal #6)
4. Wrath (seal #7 which includes the trumpets, the beasts, the bowls)

 

[Super Kal]

see, this is exactly what the pre-trib rapture doctrine does... it promotes confusion within the Word of God


it is a lie on top of a fabrication of other lies, and it needs to be done away with completely

 

[HisdaughterJen]

see, this is exactly what the pre-trib rapture doctrine does... it promotes confusion within the Word of God


it is a lie on top of a fabrication of other lies, and it needs to be done away with completely

PROVE IT! PROVE IT! PROVE IT!

All I get is opinions...I WANT YOU TO OPEN YOUR BIBLE AND PROVE IT WITH SCRIPTURES!

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

PROVE IT! PROVE IT! PROVE IT!

All I get is opinions...I WANT YOU TO OPEN YOUR BIBLE AND PROVE IT WITH SCRIPTURES!

Everyone has a gazillion times Jen. You just refuse to see it for whatever reason. It's that "why beat a dead horse" thingee I said a few days ago.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

When I first came in Eschatology 5 years ago, there were only a few post trib believers..and I wasn't one of them at the time. I am encouraged to see that there are more and more all of the time, which shows me that the Holy Spirit is doing His job!! A person has to have a "teachable Spirit" in order to receive the truth. What I mean by "teachable" is, He teaches us, we don't teach ourselves which allows confusion to enter in. I have a guideline that I employ..if the Word doesn't flow...then it isn't so!! There isn't any confusion or doubt when the Holy Spirit unfolds the Word.
JOHN 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1 JOHN 4
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the Spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1 CORINTHIANS 14
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints...If God isn't doing it, that only leaves one person, Satan.

Or Satan has decieved you to take a wrong path...
and thus out of God's will

 

[Super Kal]

or you're clinging to the 20th century teaching of Dispensationalism that Irving, Darby, Scofield, and Bullinger taught... a doctrine that was never taught by ANY of the Ante-Nicene Church fathers... a doctrine that not only promotes escapism, but also supports favoritism, something that God sees as sin.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Everyone has a gazillion times Jen. You just refuse to see it for whatever reason. It's that "why beat a dead horse" thingee I said a few days ago.

You guys are not using scriptures to prove anything. It's just opinions.

When I put scriptural proof out there, I get personal attacks or opinions instead of scriptural proof that I'm wrong.

It is obvious that Jesus said in Matt 24:

1. Tribulation (wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, martyrdom)
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall
3. wrath (a time of mourning for the nations)

which is confirmed in Rev 6:

1. Tribulation (wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, martyrdom which are seals 1-4)
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall (seal #6)
3. wrath (Seal #7 - trumpets, beasts, bowls)

What has people insisting that the devil reigns during "the tribulation" is confusion about what the abomination of desolation of Matt 24 actually is....and it's not the anti-christ as LUKE 21 PROVES and says it's the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies resulting in desolation and dispersion which happened in 70AD.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

You guys are not using scriptures to prove anything. It's just opinions.

WHOA sweetie!! I have given you scriptural proof tons of times.

When I put scriptural proof out there, I get personal attacks or opinions instead of scriptural proof that I'm wrong.

You are wrong.

It is obvious that Jesus said in Matt 24:

1. Tribulation (wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, martyrdom)
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall
3. wrath (a time of mourning for the nations)

Yes, you have the chain of events right. You just don't have the Second coming in with it "immediately after" the tribulation in Matt 24 that says that Jesus is coming in the clouds WITH THE ANGELS!!!!!! ONE TIME COMING OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS WITH THE ANGELS GATHERING HIS ELECT...US!!! Wrath is right after that.

What has people insisting that the devil reigns during "the tribulation" is confusion about what the abomination of desolation of Matt 24 actually is....and it's not the anti-christ as LUKE 21 PROVES and says it's the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies resulting in desolation and dispersion which happened in 70AD.

Wrong again!!! When Jesus stated in Matt 24: 15.. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Dan 9:27 ~ And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Who do you think this is, Daffy Duck? Did some person back in 70 AD cause the mark of the beast to be instituted so they could buy or sell??? Sure Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, but that wasn't the great tribulation with the Antichrist ruling.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Or Satan has decieved you to take a wrong path...
and thus out of God's will

You are SO funny!!!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

WHOA sweetie!! I have given you scriptural proof tons of times.

You are wrong.

Yes, you have the chain of events right. You just don't have the Second coming in with it "immediately after" the tribulation in Matt 24 that says that Jesus is coming in the clouds WITH THE ANGELS!!!!!! ONE TIME COMING OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS WITH THE ANGELS GATHERING HIS ELECT...US!!! Wrath is right after that.

It says the tribes of the earth mourn before the coming on the clouds.

Mat 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


compare to:

Amo 8:9"In that day," declares the Sovereign Lord, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

Amo 8:10I will turn your religious feasts into mourning and all your singing into weeping. I will make all of you wear sackcloth and shave your heads. I will make that time like mourning for an only son and the end of it like a bitter day.



Compare to:
Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


Rev 6:15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Then there's an entire 7th seal full of trumpets
and beasts and bowls after that.

Wrong again!!! When Jesus stated in Matt 24: 15.. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Dan 9:27 ~ And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Who do you think this is, Daffy Duck? Did some person back in 70 AD cause the mark of the beast to be instituted so they could buy or sell??? Sure Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, but that wasn't the great tribulation with the Antichrist ruling.

What makes you believe that the guy in Daniel 9:27 is the anti-christ?

Why isn't 9:27 referring to 9:26?

Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Isn't 9:27 talking about Israel and their dispersion?

 

[Covenant Heart]

Just For The Record...

Strong is no replacement for a lexicon.

What Strong provides is the barest outline of two or three of the more common usages of a given word, and those are offered without context at that. Departure? Departure from what? Departure from authority? THAT conforms to the lexical material I cited.

Lets follow this.

The A&G Lexicon is hundreds of pages in length. The Theological Word Book of the New Testament is ten large volumes in length. To dismiss exhaustive, standard references in favor of two or three scant lines from Strong is not shoddy scholarship; it is fundamentally dishonest.

Making God's word mean whatever we say that it means itself constitutes such apostasy as rebels against God and his authoritative word. That is a 'departure,' meaning a departure from faith. Ultimately, our handling of these things becomes itself an obedience issue.

There are people on these CF fora who actually know their stuff. At least one member teaches NT Greek. Another has served on a Bible translation committee. To demand that those with such training affirm ignorant bigotries in the name of fidelity won't cut it.

It's time to cut the lipservice and give Jesus Christ the submission due him.

That is the issue here.

To be mistaken in one's eschatological expectations (and who knows ALL the truth) is one thing. To slander God's word with stupid, insipid lies is quite another.

It's time the difference was recognized.