Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[HisdaughterJen]

Perhaps you missed where I gave 1 Thess 3:13. There are other verses
I can point to but I don't think you are seeing what is going on here in
this discussion.

All I can suggest is to pray. Pray for protection from that which is not
true. I am not saying your dates are impossible, just unlikely with the
uniformity we are progressing toward. Something catestrophic could
change in the next ten years so I am not saying your dates are impossible,


just your order of events....

In Christ,
Michael

There is no doubt that before wrath, those who have fallen asleep in Christ, appear with Christ, their bodies rise and we are all changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

There is no doubt that after wrath has been poured out, Christ comes with the angels to destroy the army formed against him.

 

[ezek33]

There is no doubt that before wrath, those who have fallen asleep in Christ, appear with Christ, their bodies rise and we are all changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

There is no doubt that after wrath has been poured out, Christ comes with the angels to destroy the army formed against him.

The Bible says that both these event the removal of the saints and the destruction of the wicked happen at the same time ''Luke 17:26-30'' and ''2nd Thess 1:7-9''. Why do you claim otherwise?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The Bible says that both these event the removal of the saints and the destruction of the wicked happen at the same time ''Luke 17:26-30'' and ''2nd Thess 1:7-9''. Why do you claim otherwise?

Those scriptures don't say that, now do they? There's nothing in these passages about the "removal of the saints".

2Th 1:6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
2Th 1:7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
2Th 1:8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
2Th 1:10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.



Luk 17:26"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man
Luk 17:27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.
Luk 17:29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

 

[Breckmin]

There is no doubt that before wrath, those who have fallen asleep in Christ, appear with Christ, their bodies rise and we are all changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

There is no doubt that after wrath has been poured out, Christ comes with the angels to destroy the army formed against him.

You missing the point about "ALL" Saints being in glorified bodies at the
same time, and the Coming of the Lord. 1 Thess. 3:13

You can try to dance all around it, but the text is clear that we don't
have glorified bodies until that point when we ALL have glorified bodies.

May we all pray for protection from that which is not true and not
from the Most High.
In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

I don't think the Word of God is foolish at all. I think God gave us clues, little nuggets of treasure in His Word for those of us who seek Him.

I agree with these two statements completely, but they are incongruous
to the point I was making about how foolish it is to nail down years and
dates with no one world leader. Not to meantion the fact that we switched
calanders and we don't know if Jesus was crucified in 27 AD or as late
as 33 AD. I prefer 27 AD based on certain evidences, but what will you
say in the year 2034??? If we make it that far? Or if we make it to the
year 2073?? At least at that point, all of this folly about nailing down
a date with no one world leader (THE anti-Christ) should be over...

or will it?

I'm amazed at your lack of understanding of God's plan and the meaning of the Day of rest.

For future references, this is general and doesn't address what I DO
understand about the meaning of the Day of rest...
It is also evasive to the premise that work will be taking place during
the millennium. I am not saying that it "can't" model the seven days
of creation. The point I am making is that such induction has always
been suspect when we try to nail down dates and years for the Return
of our Lord.

That is all I am saying.

Michael

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I agree with these two statements completely, but they are incongruous
to the point I was making about how foolish it is to nail down years and
dates with no one world leader. Not to meantion the fact that we switched
calanders and we don't know if Jesus was crucified in 27 AD or as late
as 33 AD. I prefer 27 AD based on certain evidences, but what will you
say in the year 2034??? If we make it that far? Or if we make it to the
year 2073?? At least at that point, all of this folly about nailing down
a date with no one world leader (THE anti-Christ) should be over...

or will it?




For future references, this is general and doesn't address what I DO
understand about the meaning of the Day of rest...
It is also evasive to the premise that work will be taking place during
the millennium. I am not saying that it "can't" model the seven days
of creation. The point I am making is that such induction has always
been suspect when we try to nail down dates and years for the Return
of our Lord.

That is all I am saying.

Michael

I haven't said anything about the dates and years for the return of the Lord in this discussion.

What I HAVE said is that Jesus showed us that He expected to be gone for 2000 years. That could be from His birth, His death, the start of His ministry, His ascension....any of those things. And like you said, we can't know what year it actually is because people have been monkeying with calendars over the years. Maybe that's why He gave us so many signs.

The devil obviously knows when Christ will come with the angels because he gathers an army to prepare to fight against Christ as He comes.
We also know because of the 1260 day prophecy.

Again, the thing that we don't know is when the Day of the Lord will begin. We know the signs and the general time frame (after 2000 years).

 

[Breckmin]

You are so busy thinking about how to think that you aren't thinking!...except about how to think. Talk about circular reasoning! You leave no room in your thinking for understanding symbolism!

I'm sorry but you are not understanding how to build a foundational
interpretation that is CONSISTENT with basic deductions that are
100% for all Christians.

You can understand the symbolism once you start with foundational
assumptions that are consistent for all Christians, even those Christians
right up until the time of Armageddon. There are basic deductions
which can point you in the right direction and I listed some for you
if you go back and read my emails. They are consistent for all Christians
and we don't need to dance around the meaning of the koine Greek
in specific verses.
Even Revelation 3:10 (which is sometimes called the one pretrib verse)
is consistent with the postribulational view in the original language in
which it was given, and is consistent with Jesus' prayer in John 17:15.

It is really quite simple. Just read the bible. The scriptures make
it clear that our gathering with Him will not take place (let no one
deceive you) until the apostasy of the church happens and the
man of lawlessness is revealed.

One rapture. One Second Coming. One correct biblical position.

Everything else is induction(s)....

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

This help me in my bias against post trib in the beginning, and helped to
raise the red flag on what I believed...

Then I started learning about systems based on "induction." They were
prevalent all through the 19th Century... Joseph Smith, Charles Russell,
Mary Baker Eddy, CHARLES DARWIN, even Ellen G. White.
It was well documented that John Darby visited the McDonald brother's
and knew of their sister's dream (Margret McDonald). I don't know how
much has been rewritten in history to clean up the connection between
Darby and the McDonalds but even though he rejected the sign gifts
he still was influenced by the induction of a dispensational hermeneutic.
What century was that again? Walter Martin used to talk about this
on the Bible Answer Man back in the 80's. As an authority on cults
he saw the similarities between the pre-tribulational rapture.
In fact, "Christian" universalism is guilty of the exact same type of
systematic inductions that lead to their deception. When did John
Murry leave the Methodists (18th Century, 19th Century?).

The fact is the time period for which the Pre-Trib rapture started
is very suspect. That is not, however, a reason to reject it.

That is easily done through exegesis.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

<sic>To counter someone's claim. This is not a strange belief. This is classic
pretribulational dispensational theology. The problem is it wasn't around
in publication until John Nelson Darby, and it didn't get spread so widely
until D.L. Moody (great man of God, great preacher, but nobody's perfect)

Pray about it. Pray that God will protect you from anything that
is not true. From anything that is not from Him (including my
post) including the pre-tribulational rapture in the scriptures.

Ask God to show you: if there are 2 raptures or 1. If there are
2 returns of Christ or 1. If the last trumpet is the seventh
trumpet in the book of Revelation. Why dance around the
simplicity of what God is telling you in the scriptures???

What will it profit you eternally to be saved from martyrdom
when the Lord Jesus has already saved you from your sins
and washed you clean of unrighteousness??? Will not God
work out all things together for good? Which is the better
good, to be rescued OR to stand firm in your faith, glorify
God and be a testimony to the world?? Thess. 5:21
Perhaps you will ask the Lord to forgive your executors
and one of them will be cut to the heart; tear, cut or
remove the mark of the beast from their body and trust
that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a great enough Sacrifice
unto God, even to forgive them for making the mistake
and taking the mark...

Which is the greater good?

In Christ,
Michael

Actually, your position does not appear to be the classic pre-tribuational
dispensational position that was taught at Dallas, Talbot, and all the
rest after Moody. Your position on 2000 years of tribulation is a slight
modification. I would still ask you to employ the same questioning of
your hermeneutics. The deductions I listed for you should help.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Actually, your position does not appear to be the classic pre-tribuational
dispensational position that was taught at Dallas, Talbot, and all the
rest after Moody. Your position on 2000 years of tribulation is a slight
modification. I would still ask you to employ the same questioning of
your hermeneutics. The deductions I listed for you should help.

Well, I'm also an odd ball because I take God's Word above all. What does it matter what anyone else said or wrote? God gives the Holy Spirit to all who ask Him regardless of if they have been trained in hermeneutics or theories of men. I'm a nobody who asked the Lord for a little insight on Revelation.

Jhn 14:26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.



1Jo 2:27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you, remain in him.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It is really quite simple. Just read the bible. The scriptures make
it clear that our gathering with Him will not take place (let no one
deceive you) until the apostasy of the church happens and the
man of lawlessness is revealed.

Oh, don't get me started on APOSTASIA and 2 Thess 2.

APO=to move away
STASIA=place of standing

The point of the passage is "our being gathered to Christ".
What did Paul say our gathering to Christ is? A DEPARTURE!

2Th 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


Think about it. Paul said, "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" and then supposedly said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it in that passage AT ALL????

APOSTASIA is departure and the church is the restrainer.

Confirmed by Rev 6 and Rev 12.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Pentacostals who are reconstructionalists would possibly be weak for
deception also, temporarily.

Well, I am Pentecostal to the core, and post trib . There are more of us out there all of the time who God is opening up our Spiritual eyes to His Word. I was pre-trib for 35 years until the blinders fell off of my eyes while reading Matthew 24 one night. The revelation to the truth of this was mind blowing to me after being deceived for so long. It was there all of the time and I didn't see it, but listened to beliefs coming from the pulpit of man (or woman) and just accepted it. My sister got the revelation a few weeks later. Thank God that he intervened.
My belief is that a person can be full of the Word, but none of us knows it all. The pre-trib rapture, even though a false teaching, doesn't necessarily put a person in peril if they at least know what goes on during the tribulation biblically. It's all right there to know. It is those who would rather hang on to a time line lie then the truth that worries me, and they just accept it like I did. None of us has a good excuse for not knowing the truth. God doesn't want any of us to be deceived by the deceiver, but sadly that is just what has happened with this lie that has permeated the church. Satan isn't stupid, and he chose a very good weapon regarding the timing of Christs return for a reason that I believe will be made known to those who believe this lie. It may bring those even closer to Christ, or the deception is far to great to comprehend. Only God knows.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

It just amazes me that after showing pre-trib believers that Christ comes in the clouds AFTER the tribulation in Matthew 24 that they can't see it. They can't understand that He is only coming in the clouds ONE TIME with the angels...not the church in Matthew 24. He comes right after the sun/moon goes dark right after the tribulation and right before the wrath. To me, either Satan has these folks so totally blinded, or they don't want to accept having to go through the tribulation. Well, I am sure that Noah didn't want to be in the Ark with all of those animals for 40 days/40 nights, or Job be covered in boils and lose his family, servants and live stock, Jonah in the belly of a whale, Paul beaten and exiled to Patmos etc. We aren't immune from tribulation just because we bare the name of Christ. I'm sure that Christ didn't really want to hang on the cross and die for us if the truth be made known. I'm positive that He didn't as He sweated great drops of blood in the garden and prayed that this cup would pass from Him. He was doing His Fathers will. Will those who discover that they are in the Great tribulation do the Fathers will also and their faith stay strong under these circumstances? I feel that it is going to be an interesting journey for 3.5 years for some folks.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It just amazes me that after showing pre-trib believers that Christ comes in the clouds AFTER the tribulation in Matthew 24 that they can't see it. They can't understand that He is only coming in the clouds ONE TIME with the angels...not the church in Matthew 24. He comes right after the sun/moon goes dark right after the tribulation and right before the wrath. To me, either Satan has these folks so totally blinded, or they don't want to accept having to go through the tribulation. Well, I am sure that Noah didn't want to be in the Ark with all of those animals for 40 days/40 nights, or Job be covered in boils and lose his family, servants and live stock, Jonah in the belly of a whale, Paul beaten and exiled to Patmos etc. We aren't immune from tribulation just because we bare the name of Christ. I'm sure that Christ didn't really want to hang on the cross and die for us if the truth be made known. I'm positive that He didn't as He sweated great drops of blood in the garden and prayed that this cup would pass from Him. He was doing His Fathers will. Will those who discover that they are in the Great tribulation do the Fathers will also and their faith stay strong under these circumstances? I feel that it is going to be an interesting journey for 3.5 years for some folks.

According to Jesus in Matt 24, the tribulation is before the sun/moon darken/stars fall and the wrath is after the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

1. Tribulation
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall
3. judgment and wrath of God


Agreed?

Now, look at the seals.

1 - 4 = wars, famines, plagues, wild beasts (includes persecution and martyrdom)
seal #5 = giving of white robes to one set of martyrs, warning that more martyrs to come b/4 final judgment
seal #6 = sun/moon darken/stars fall
seal #7 = trumpets, beasts, two witnesses, bowls

Now, tell me, if the sun/moon darkening is after the tribulation, then which of the seals are the tribulation?

If the wrath is after the sun/moon darkening, which of the seals are the wrath?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

I don't know if Big Mouth Nana is asserting anything about Obama, but "please..."
he is not the anti-Christ.

Of course he isn't!! I don't expect people to believe it. Want to know how many times I have heard this in the 4 years that I have been screaming it on here?

He needs our prayers as he begins to lead our country. God can continue to
change his heart and make him even more conservative. Look who he chose
to pray. Pray for him, Nana. He is definitely not the anti-Christ because he
is attracted to women.

If you are basing this assumption on the verse that says this in Dan 11:37...He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god etc, that is not the true Hebrew rendering. It is translated this way.."He will not give consideration to the G-d of his (Israel's)
> ancestors nor to the desirable among women (Israel), nor will he give
> consideration to any god, for he will aggrandize himself above
> everything" ....right from Hebrew Sages mouths.
The bible doesn't say that the Antichrist isn't married, and I'm not praying for him because I KNOW who he is. Now his family is a different story as far as prayer goes.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

According to Jesus in Matt 24, the tribulation is before the sun/moon darken/stars fall and the wrath is after the sun/moon darken/stars fall.

1. Tribulation
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall
3. judgment and wrath of God


Agreed?

The sun/moon darken at the end of the tribulation. Jesus comes back right after that before the wrath takes place...same day.

Now, look at the seals.

I think that is where your problem is. You are to caught up into trying to match the seals with everything else. I believe the 3rd seal is where it starts, and we are there right now....Rev 6:6 ~ And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
This actually reads this way..And I heard what seemed to be a voice from the midst of the four living creatures, saying, A quart of wheat for a denarius [a whole day's wages], and three quarts of barley for a denarius [a whole days wages] but do not harm the oil and the wine! Economically we are about there.

If the wrath is after the sun/moon darkening, which of the seals are the wrath?

The wrath doesn't have any seal. The wrath starts with the third woe..Rev 11:14-18 ~ The second WOE is past; and, behold, the third WOE cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever....We are gone.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Hismessenger]

As Big Mouth Nana,

It is amazing how people will hold to a false doctrine, fable even after countless scripture have been shown to directly refute, not suggest as the doctrine does, that it just ain't so.

Hisdaughterjen you post a scripture which gives the truth and still fail to see it. 1 Thess.4:17 says we who are still alive and left will be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever...

Here in lies the truth to all the false doctrine about a pre trib rapture. The passages is talking truly about the rapture but it is Post trib. The verse before this one says the dead in Christ will rise first. this is witnessed by Rev11: where it says to the dead resurrected witnesses, Come up Hither.

They are the first resurrection and those who remain alive will not be caught up to be with the lord until the thousand year reign is past.

Now the question to all pre trib believers is, where in the scripture do you find the church dying to be taken before those who die in the tribulation are taken. You don't and you can't. It is only a lie for there is only one second coming and when He comes it will be to reward and judge at the same time.

The dead witnesses, the church, are the only ones taken in a rapture. the rest of the dead remain in the grave until the thousand years are past. They are not raptured but rather resurrected just as those who go before are resurrected before they are raptured. They are the only ones raptured. The rest are resurrected to life with christ, not raptured

The last shall be first and the first shall be last. If you die before the great tribulation, you will remain in the grave until the white throne judgment. This can be confirmed by the word for anyone who cares enough about the truth to look it up. I am the way, the truth and the light said Christ. How much light do you have in you to truly seek the truth.

hismessenger

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually, your position does not appear to be the classic pre-tribuational
dispensational position that was taught at Dallas, Talbot, and all the
rest after Moody. Your position on 2000 years of tribulation is a slight
modification. I would still ask you to employ the same questioning of
your hermeneutics. The deductions I listed for you should help.

Yeah, there have been a few minor bumps in the road during that period.
Nuttin we can't handle though

Matt 24:21 "For then shall be Tribulation/qliyiV <2347> Great, the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming

Reve 7:14 And I have declared to Him "Lord! of me thou are aware". And He said to me "these are those coming out of the Tribulation/qliyewV <2347> the Great and they plunge the stoles of them and they whiten [*stoles of] them in the blood of the lambkin

 

[Super Kal]

well, 21 out of the 22 times they use the word "tribulation" in the KJV, they refer to G2347

 

[Breckmin]

I'm a nobody who asked the Lord for a little insight on Revelation.

Since we often understand eschatology in retrospect (once it has taken
place) then I believe you have to be "extra" careful.

Have you considered asking "the Lord for a little <protection>" from
that which isn't true, EVEN if it contradicts such "insight" which may not
be from Him? Have you been willing to ask for protection from what you
"think" is Him, IF it's NOT Him?

Very important to do that last part.

Do you believe a Christian can be under demonic influence (demonization)
or have a foothold in a Christians life??? I'm not saying you do, I'm just
asking a question regarding whether you think 3 dimensionally about the
Holy Spirit protecting you from demonization. It is just a theological
question. Do you think that a born-again Christian can have a demon
ever control them? Take over their brain and make movements with
their limbs and other body parts??

In Christ,
Michael