Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[garry2]

Unfortunately, the second part of your statement is correct. Let me ask you something garry2. If Matt 24 was the only chapter in the NT and you read Matt 24:3-31, what would your answer be regarding the timing of Christ's coming? Pay close attention to verses 3, 14, 15, 21, and 29 thru 31. This is as plain as it can get. The other verses in the bible that talk about Christs coming are the same time frame as these verses in Matthew. Matthew is just the only one that mentions the tribulation in regards to His coming. Jesus is only coming for the church ONE time.

Luke tells of the wedding already having taken place in heaven when Jesus returns.

Luke 12
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he comethand knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Also does Rev. 19

Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The marriage takes place in Heaven before Christ returns to earth.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

These armies are the Bride - the saints, is plain, from verse 8.

 

[garry2]

It maybe that these armies in Rev 19:14 are Gods Holy Angels as they would propably also be arraned in fine linen, and the bride - saints remain in heaven when Jesus returns.
But none the less the wedding has taken place in heaven before Christ's return is clear from these verses alone.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes, the Bride is given her Bridal clothes BEFORE the wedding, not AFTER. The wedding does not follow wrath, it follows the 2000 year "tribulation". In Revelation, the giving of white robes is at the 5th seal before the day of the Lord/day of wrath begins, which signal is the earthquake/sun/moon darkening followed by seven years of outpouring of wrath in the form of the trumpets, the beasts(42 months), the bowls, the two witnesses (42 months), and followed by Christ's physical return.


Now, these people, on the other hand, may very well follow Christ and could be those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb, as opposed to being the Bride.

Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.



It says they are purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God. If they are the 144,000 of Israel, then they are the first firstfruits offering of the second harvest.

Amo 7:1 This is what the Sovereign Lord showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king's share had been harvested (rapture of the church which is the 1st harvest) and just as the second crop was coming up. (2nd harvest)

 

[Bible2]

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #1:

The bible states in John 8:32... And ye shall know
the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Does
that mean that those who do not see the truth are in
more serious peril during the tribulation then those
who are post who have received the truth?

In application to pre-post, John 8:32 would mean that
knowing the post-trib truth will make one free of
something, which could be fear of the tribulation.
For the post-trib view requires that one face one's
fear of the tribulation head-on and overcome it
(cf. Revelation 2:10), while the pre-trib view allows
one to merely attempt to smother it with a false hope
of a pre-trib rapture, while the fear continues to
fester in one's subconscious nonetheless (cf. Hebrews 2:15).

Of course, the benefit of knowing the post-trib truth
can be short-circuited by those who think that God
must protect them perfectly during the tribulation;
this false hope of mandatory miraculous protection is
no less an attempt to smother one's fear of the
tribulation than the false hope of a pre-trib rapture.

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #1:

I am at peace knowing what to expect...and actually
more grateful to God for showing me the truth since
it has sunk in.

Letting the post-trib truth "sink in" is the perfect
image of what we must let happen, for those who refuse
the post-trib truth and hold onto the pre-trib false
hope could be like those who, even though they love the
Word of God, they "have no root in themselves", and so
will become "offended" in tribulation (Matthew 13:20-21,
24:9-10), possibly even to the point of apostasy
(Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Just as it takes time for the root of a plant to grow,
as it has to gradually work its way down through the
soil and stones, so it takes time for the post-trib
truth to work its way down through the fears and
worries of our souls, and replace them with a root of
fearlessness and courage and determination, so that we
might endure the coming tribulation with patience and
faith unto the end (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13,
Matthew 24:9-13).

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #1:

Now, I am wondering if people that follow this
teaching and believe in a pre-trib rapture are going
to be totally blind sided once the tribulation hits.

Many who hold the pre-trib view, especially those who
do so out of the utmost fear (whether they realize it
or not), could very well be horribly blindsided when
they realize there isn't going to be a pre-trib
rapture, that they are in the tribulation and will have
to suffer through all of it. They could totally freak
out and their faith could completely fail.

But nothing requires that this has to happen to someone
just because they hold to the pre-trib view. There will
no doubt be very many who hold to the pre-trib view who
will do just fine in the tribulation; they will simply
think "Oh, well. I guess I read it wrong. No big deal.
The Church has always had to suffer tribulation. May
God see me through this", and they will knuckle down
and endure the tribulation with patience and faith
unto the end.

They could even put some who held to the post-trib
view to shame, for some who held to the post-trib view
could falter in their faith during the long suffering
of the tribulation, despite all their warnings to those
who held to the pre-trib view (cf. Job 4:3-5).

What will ultimately make the difference in whether
we make it through the tribulation with our faith in
tact will be our obedience to Jesus before the
tribulation. For if we are not obeying Him now,
every day of our lives (Luke 9:23), our spiritual house
is built upon the sand, and so will crumble when the
trial of the tribulation comes (Matthew 7:26-27). But
if we are in obedience to Jesus now, before the
tribulation, our spiritual house is on the rock, and
so will withstand the storm and stress of the
tribulation (Matthew 7:24-25).

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #1:

If they can't even see the post trib rapture in the
Word, will they even know who the Antichrist is once
he is revealed?

Oh, yes, most of those who hold to the pre-trib view
are very well versed in what the Antichrist will do;
they will recognize him for sure when he commits the
abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 9:27,
11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), so long as they are
not in any unrepentant sin and so are sent the strong
delusion from God (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).

 

[Bible2]

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #1:

I DO believe that Satan started this lie for a very
good reason...what is that reason and for what
purpose?

It's possible that Satan invented the false hope of a
pre-trib rapture, insofar as he is the father of lies
(John 8:44b). But this doesn't mean that those who
hold to the pre-trib view are Satanic, for they hate
Satan and love God and His Word. They may have just
fallen under one of his deceptions out of fear of the
tribulation, or because people they respect highly
have wrongly assured them that pre-trib is the only
possibility.

If Satan did invent the pre-trib false hope, he may
have done so in order to weaken the Church, to keep
it from having any "root in itself" (Matthew 13:21),
to keep it from having to face its fear of the
tribulation and overcome that fear (cf. Revelation
2:10, Hebrews 2:15).

Satan could also use the pre-trib view as a great
weapon with which to batter the faith of Christians
during the suffering of the tribulation. He could
say something like:

"O, you poor souls! So utterly deceived by that liar
YHWH! How cruel of him to promise you a pre-trib
rapture and get all your hopes up, only to pull the
rug out from under you at the last moment! How he is
laughing at you now in your suffering! Doesn't he
even admit it in Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23? Yes,
of course he does, just to spite you. How he hates
you, my friends, how he hates all of humanity. All
he wants to do is cause suffering, all this
tribulation suffering. And this is only a prelude to
the eternal torture which he will delight in forever.
What a foul and cruel tyrant he is! But I will tell
you a secret. He is not all-powerful as he pretends
to be. Wasn't he fearful when man built the Tower of
Babel? Of course he was, he even admitted it himself
in Genesis 11:6, for he knows that when mankind becomes
united, nothing can be restrained from it; it can do
anything. Even storm heaven and overthrow him. And so
he destroyed the unity of mankind, out of fear for
himself and his tyrrany".

Satan could go on: "But look here, my friends. I do
not hate you. I am no tyrant. Who is feeding you? Who
is feeding your starving, crying little ones, while
YHWH doesn't lift a finger to help you or them? I AM
feeding you. I AM helping you. I AM your God, your
true Lord, your beneficent Master. Fall down and
worship me, Lucifer, and my Son, and His image,
receive His mark on your hand or forehead, and together
we will rise as one to fight against YHWH and destroy
his foul tyranny once and for all. YHWH is coming soon
to try to stop this unity which we are forging, to try
to stop the blessed illumination and power which I
Lucifer am bringing to all of mankind. But we will win,
for nothing can be restrained from us; we can do
anything, so long we do not allow him to break our union".

Satan could continue: "So, come, my friends, it is time
for you to formally renounce YHWH, to curse him to his
face and before all the world, that you might completely
break free from his hypnotic spell, which has blinded
you so long to his utter cruelty and hatred for mankind.
And it is time, my friends, for you to formally announce
your complete devotion to me, Lucifer, and to my Son,
and to worship us in Spirit and in Truth, that you might
receive the full Illumination of My Spirit within you,
and feel my seething Power within your soul. You will
become new creatures in Me, new creatures of Light,
and Love for all mankind".

And with speeches such as this, Satan could utterly
wear down the defenses of some already-completely
exhausted saints, whose strength of faith could not
survive the long, horrible suffering of the
tribulation, not only the suffering of themselves,
but of their innocent little ones as well. They will
be defeated by their doubts: "How could a good God let
this happen to me? How could a good God let my innocent
little baby starve to an agonizingly painful death
while he sits up and heaven and does nothing? No
rapture, no manna, nothing. Not even a word of
encouragement. Utter silence. Is he dead? Is he evil?
What could possibly be the point of all this suffering?
I can no longer serve such a 'God' as this. I will
serve that God who proves his love for me by helping
me, by feeding me, by feeding my precious little ones.
You will know them by their fruits. Now I have seen the
ultimate fruits of YHWH, and now I have seen the
ultimate fruits of Lucifer and His Son. It is plain as
day who is truly good and who is truly evil".

And so the love of many will grow cold toward YHWH
(Matthew 24:12). They will show that they love their
stomachs (Philippians 3:19) and their little ones more
than they love God (Matthew 10:37b). They will show
that their love of God wasn't based on who He is,
their Creator (John 1:3) and Crucified Savior (Acts
20:28) and the Almighty Infinite God compared with
whom all of mankind together is an infinitesimal
speck of dust, worth less than nothing (Isaiah
40:15-18). No, their love of God was conditional upon
what He gave them in this life: wealth, happiness,
health, food, clothing, and the promise of a pre-trib
rapture. Take all of these things away in the
tribulation, and they, unlike Job (Job 1:21-22), will
have no more reason to worship God, but only a reason
to curse him (Job 2:9-10, Isaiah 8:21-22).

This will be the ultimate fruit of the prosperity
gospel, the Americanized gospel of wealth and plenty
and a pre-trib rapture: apostasy in the tribulation
(2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1), a complete
ignorance of such ideas as 1 Peter 4:12-13,
2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and 1 Timothy 6:9-12, a
complete denial of such ideas as Philippians 1:29,
2 Timothy 2:12, and Revelation 14:12-13.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Satan could also use the pre-trib view as a great
weapon with which to batter the faith of Christians
during the suffering of the tribulation. He could
say something like:

"O, you poor souls! So utterly deceived by that liar
YHWH! How cruel of him to promise you a pre-trib
rapture and get all your hopes up, only to pull the
rug out from under you at the last moment! How he is
laughing at you now in your suffering! Doesn't he
even admit it in Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23? Yes,
of course he does, just to spite you. How he hates
you, my friends, how he hates all of humanity. All
he wants to do is cause suffering, all this
tribulation suffering. And this is only a prelude to
the eternal torture which he will delight in forever.
What a foul and cruel tyrant he is! But I will tell
you a secret. He is not all-powerful as he pretends
to be. Wasn't he fearful when man built the Tower of
Babel? Of course he was, he even admitted it himself
in Genesis 11:6, for he knows that when mankind becomes
united, nothing can be restrained from it; it can do
anything. Even storm heaven and overthrow him. And so
he destroyed the unity of mankind, out of fear for
himself and his tyrrany".

Satan could go on: "But look here, my friends. I do
not hate you. I am no tyrant. Who is feeding you? Who
is feeding your starving, crying little ones, while
YHWH doesn't lift a finger to help you or them? I AM
feeding you. I AM helping you. I AM your God, your
true Lord, your beneficent Master. Fall down and
worship me, Lucifer, and my Son, and His image,
receive His mark on your hand or forehead, and together
we will rise as one to fight against YHWH and destroy
his foul tyranny once and for all. YHWH is coming soon
to try to stop this unity which we are forging, to try
to stop the blessed illumination and power which I
Lucifer am bringing to all of mankind. But we will win,
for nothing can be restrained from us; we can do
anything, so long we do not allow him to break our union".

Satan could continue: "So, come, my friends, it is time
for you to formally renounce YHWH, to curse him to his
face and before all the world, that you might completely
break free from his hypnotic spell, which has blinded
you so long to his utter cruelty and hatred for mankind.
And it is time, my friends, for you to formally announce
your complete devotion to me, Lucifer, and to my Son,
and to worship us in Spirit and in Truth, that you might
receive the full Illumination of My Spirit within you,
and feel my seething Power within your soul. You will
become new creatures in Me, new creatures of Light,
and Love for all mankind".

And with speeches such as this, Satan could utterly
wear down the defenses of some already-completely
exhausted saints, whose strength of faith could not
survive the long, horrible suffering of the
tribulation, not only the suffering of themselves,
but of their innocent little ones as well. They will
be defeated by their doubts: "How could a good God let
this happen to me? How could a good God let my innocent
little baby starve to an agonizingly painful death
while he sits up and heaven and does nothing? No
rapture, no manna, nothing. Not even a word of
encouragement. Utter silence. Is he dead? Is he evil?
What could possibly be the point of all this suffering?
I can no longer serve such a 'God' as this. I will
serve that God who proves his love for me by helping
me, by feeding me, by feeding my precious little ones.
You will know them by their fruits. Now I have seen the
ultimate fruits of YHWH, and now I have seen the
ultimate fruits of Lucifer and His Son. It is plain as
day who is truly good and who is truly evil".

And so the love of many will grow cold toward YHWH
(Matthew 24:12). They will show that they love their
stomachs (Philippians 3:19) and their little ones more
than they love God (Matthew 10:37b). They will show
that their love of God wasn't based on who He is,
their Creator (John 1:3) and Crucified Savior (Acts
20:28) and the Almighty Infinite God compared with
whom all of mankind together is an infinitesimal
speck of dust, worth less than nothing (Isaiah
40:15-18). No, their love of God was conditional upon
what He gave them in this life: wealth, happiness,
health, food, clothing, and the promise of a pre-trib
rapture. Take all of these things away in the
tribulation, and they, unlike Job (Job 1:21-22), will
have no more reason to worship God, but only a reason
to curse him (Job 2:9-10, Isaiah 8:21-22).

This will be the ultimate fruit of the prosperity
gospel, the Americanized gospel of wealth and plenty
and a pre-trib rapture: apostasy in the tribulation
(2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1), a complete
ignorance of such ideas as 1 Peter 4:12-13,
2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and 1 Timothy 6:9-12, a
complete denial of such ideas as Philippians 1:29,
2 Timothy 2:12, and Revelation 14:12-13.

WOW bible2!! If I wasn't grounded in Christ, you could have had me with these lies if you were Satan lol!!!!! You're good and should write a movie script for a Tribulation epic lol. It reminded me of Christs temptation in the desert with all of the lies that Satan told Christ. He promised Christ all manner of things if he would bow down and worship him, and I can see him promising those weak in the faith the necessities to live.
I have often thought how hard it would be for parents with children going through the tribulation and not refusing the mark so their kids can eat. Now that is going to take gigantic faith!! I don't think that people have any idea just how bad this is going to be, and how our faith is going to be tested. I believe that some of us will have to die for our faith as the martyrs did, and Christians all down through history.
I agree that those who are deeply rooted in Christ will know who the AC is when he sits down in the temple and proclaims that he is God. Most of the church knows this much at least. I do believe that those of us who have been in the post trib belief for quite awhile are more prepared mentally and Spiritually though. The shock has already come and gone.

 

[Bible2]

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #26:

If I wasn't grounded in Christ, you could have had me
with these lies if you were Satan lol!

The lies which were presented in message #25 as being
what Satan could say during the tribulation should be
answered, in case any one of them might be niggling
away at some believer's faith. They were presented to
serve as vaccines, as it were, so that if a believer
is in fact confronted with those lies during the
coming tribulation, his spiritual immune system, his
faith, will have already been prepared to overcome
them (Ephesians 6:16).

First, it was said to believers who were in the
tribulation that God was cruel to promise them a pre-
trib rapture and get all their hopes up, only to pull
the rug out from under them at the last moment. The
truth is that God has never promised believers a pre-
trib rapture. No scripture ever refers to any such
thing.

Second, it was said that God was laughing at the
suffering of the believers in the tribulation, and
Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23 were referenced. The truth
is that God doesn't ever laugh at the suffering of
believers (Psalms 116:15); Proverbs 1:26 is addressing
those who have rejected God (Proverbs 1:24-33). And
Job 9:23 is just the wrong opinion of Job during his
great suffering; not everything he says is correct.
For example, he says in Job 19:11 that what was
happening to him was God's wrath against him, when it
wasn't God's wrath at all, but Satan's wrath. During
the coming tribulation, Satan is going to have his
cake and eat it too. Because of the false pre-trib
idea that all of the tribulation is God's wrath,
instead of it mostly being Satan's wrath, Satan will
get to cause a whole world of suffering during the
tribulation and then blame it all on God and say that
God did all of it, and people will believe Satan.
He'll get to present himself as the good guy and God
as the evil tyrant, when it will be Satan doing the
evil, just as it was Satan doing the evil against Job.

Third, it was said that God hates all of humanity.
The truth is that God hates only some of humanity,
the vessels of wrath, those predestined by him to
damnation before they were born (Romans 9:13-22). Now
this will be where the rubber meets the road for many:
can they accept that the Infinite Creator has the
right to do with his infinitesimal creatures (Isaiah
40:15,17) whatsoever he wants (Romans 9:21-22,
Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 4:11), or will they insist
that God is unjust, evil, to predestine people to
damnation before they've done anything at all? To
accept the former shows humility before God; to insist
on the latter shows human, nay, Satanic, pride, for it
attempts to set God's creatures above God himself:
it's saying that infinitesimal humans are more
important than the Infinite God and his will and
pleasure. The truth of double predestination is the
ultimate test of our humility before God. No doubt
Satan will employ that truth during the tribulation as
his ultimate weapon to try to turn people away from
God.

Fourth, it was said that all God wants to do is cause
suffering, all the tribulation suffering. The truth
is that God loves to care for his creatures (Psalms
104:10-18). He only brings suffering (chastening) to
those he loves when they fall into sin and need to
repent (Revelation 3:19). And the suffering which
comes upon those who are already repentant (Acts
14:22, John 16:33, Philippians 1:29) can still work
good things in them, such as patience (Romans 5:3)
and a greater hope in the eternal glory to come
(2 Corinthians 4:17). Suffering is an innate part of
the fallen creation; it is universal (Romans 8:22).
It's not like God himself is actively behind every
instance of suffering. There can simply be natural
disasters. And Satan and evil men cause tremendous
amounts of suffering (e.g. Revelation 2:10, 12:17,
13:7,10, 14:12-13, 20:4b).

Fifth, it was said that God will delight in the
eternal torture of the unsaved. The truth is that
God will not take any pleasure in the unsaved's
suffering per se (cf. Ezekiel 33:11). The only
pleasure he will take in connection with people being
unsaved is that they will provide him an opportunity
to show his wrath and to make his power known (Romans
9:22) forever (Revelation 14:10-11). This again will
be where the rubber meets the road for many: will they
accept that the Holy God has the right to eternally
torture the unsaved as punishment for their free-
willed sins (Romans 6:23, Revelation 21:8, James
1:13-15), or will they claim that they know better
than God himself what is just and what is not just?
If they accept the former, they will show humility
before God, while if they claim the latter they will
be placing themselves above God, making themselves
the judge of God, and so will show the ultimate extent
of their Satanic pride.

Sixth, it was said that God is not all-powerful as he
pretends to be, and that he was fearful when man built
the Tower of Babel; Genesis 11:6 was referenced. The
truth is that God is all powerful (Jeremiah 32:17,27),
and he wasn't fearful for himself at all at the Tower
of Babel; all of mankind together is an infinitesimal
speck, less than nothing compared with the Infinite,
Almighty God (Isaiah 40:15,17). He was fearful only
for what a fallen, united mankind, in its overweening
pride, would end up doing to itself and the planet, or
even to other planets, such as creating some huge
scientific device which would end up blowing the earth
to smithereens, or colonizing Mars and some moons of
Jupiter only to utterly defile them with sin and
pollution.

Seventh, it was said that Satan doesn't hate mankind,
and that his feeding of mankind during the tribulation
will prove his love for mankind. The truth is that
Satan has wanted to murder all of mankind from the
beginning (John 8:44); that's why he deceived Eve into
committing sin (Genesis 3:4), so that all of mankind
would become mortal and die (Romans 5:12). Now his
hope is to drag as much of mankind as possible with
him into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,15). He'll
do anything for men in the tribulation, give men
anything they want in the tribulation, so long as he
gets to see them ultimately tortured forever just as
he will be (Matthew 25:41,46). So when he offers men
bread and water and clothing and "love" during the
tribulation, this will be a ruse, nothing but bait to
get men onto the hook of rebellion against God, to
get them to ultimately suffer eternal damnation
(Revelation 14:10-11).

Eighth, and last, it was said that a good God would not
let an innocent little baby starve to an agonizingly
painful death during the tribulation while he sits up
in heaven and does nothing. The truth is that this
life, even if we live to be 100 years old, is nothing
but a nanosecond compared with eternity. And death is
better than life in this world for those who are saved,
and for little babies who have been elected by God to
salvation, for their death will take them into heaven
to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8); their death will
be no loss, but gain for them, far better than any life
in this fallen world (Philippians 1:21,23). Only those
who wrongly love this world (1 John 2:15) and their
life in it (John 12:25) are horrified by death. Satan
uses the fear of death to keep people in bondage to
himself and to his ways (Hebrews 2:15), to keep their
sights on temporal things instead of on that which is
eternal (2 Corinthians 4:18).

 

[Bible2]

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #26:

I do believe that those of us who have been in the
post trib belief for quite awhile are more prepared
mentally and Spiritually though. The shock has
already come and gone.

Actually, no matter how long we have been in the post-
trib truth, we may be no better prepared for the
coming tribulation than the most fearful person
clinging onto the false hope of a pre-trib rapture.
For our agreement with the post-trib truth could be
only intellectual, while our hearts may have not yet
processed deep, emotional fears we have regarding the
horrible suffering that is coming; we may have simply
smothered over these fears with mental bravado.

It would be like two soldiers right before a battle
is about to begin. One soldier could be wetting his
pants and sweating profusely while the other soldier
is standing tall and strong and smirking over how
great he is going to perform once the battle begins.
Present actions are no guarantee of future actions.
The fearful soldier, once the battle starts and his
adrenaline starts flowing and his survival instinct
takes over, could become a fighting machine like none
before, so that he earns a medal for his valor during
the battle; while the confident soldier, once the
battle actually begins, could suddenly seize up with
terror and be unable to do anything but cower in a
fetal ball on the ground.

We need to ask God to show us the condition of our
hearts with regard to the coming tribulation. The
pre-tribbers could be more honestly acknowledging
their terror of the tribulation by trying to invent
a way to get out of it, while some post-tribbers
could be ignorant of their subconscious terror of the
tribulation, and so this terror could rise up and
take them by surprise and totally defeat them once
the tribulation actually starts, despite all of the
verbal confidence they may have shown before the
tribulation (cf. Job 4:3-5).

Regarding being prepared spiritually for the coming
tribulation, the only spiritual preparation is
obedience to Jesus, now, in these days, before the
tribulation, so that our spiritual house will not be
resting on the sand but on the rock (Matthew 7:24-27).
And this obedience will not only see us through the
coming tribulation, no matter whether we live or die
in it, but is necessary if we are to ever receive
eternal salvation (Hebrews 5:9), even if we die before
the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1).

 

[Bible2]

Big Mouth Nana posted in message #26:

I have often thought how hard it would be for parents
with children going through the tribulation and not
refusing the mark so their kids can eat. Now that is
going to take gigantic faith!! I don't think that
people have any idea just how bad this is going to
be, and how our faith is going to be tested.

It will be very difficult for believers with children
during the coming tribulation, just as it will be
very difficult for believers who are taking care of
elderly parents during that time, for the Antichrist
will do doubt use our closest relations as his
strongest weapons against us. He could seize our
child, or seize our parent, or for that matter, seize
our beloved spouse, and then begin to torture them
before our eyes. As they begin to shriek with pain
and horror, he could say "Deny God! Deny God and the
torture will stop. That's all you have to do, simply
commit apostasy, and your loved one will be set free
immediately".

If we hesitate, if we remain silent, with tears
rolling down our face, he could grab a knitting needle
and thrust it into the eye of our loved one: "Deny
God! I tell you, you have not yet begun to see what I
will do to your loved one should you remain obstinate
and hold true to your vile, worthless, and utterly
powerless God. You have seen nothing yet!"

If we bite our lip, try to avert our gaze from the
horror before us, the Antichrist could have men seize
our head and hold open our eyes: "Look at what you are
causing! Your foolish stubborness is ruining your
loved one! Give in! Save your loved one!"

At this point our loved one could plead with us:
"Please! O, please! Give in! Make this stop! Please,
I beg you!"

We could crumple to our knees, vomiting, completely
overwhelmed. And yet we could say nothing, make no
response to the Antichrist whatsoever.

For we could be thinking within ourselves: "How will
it help my loved one for me to give in and commit
apostasy? Once they are released from this torture,
they will be forced to commit apostasy themselves,
and then we will both be forced to worship the
Antichrist and his image and take his mark on our
hand or forehead, to our utter and eternal damnation
(Revelation 14:9-13). We will have traded an eternity
of bliss with God for three or four years of slavery
to the Antichrist. We will have gotten free of a
merely temporary torture at the hands of the
Antichrist, only to assure our eternal torture at the
hands of God himself (Luke 12:4-5, Matthew 10:28)".

And we could be thinking: "I mustn't let my love for
my loved one overcome my love for God (Matthew 10:37).
And how would it be showing love for them to spare
them a temporary torture only so that they can be
subsequently railroaded by the Antichrist into
apostasy and eternal torture?"

As we continue thinking, continue to reason within
ourselves, silently, the Antichrist could decide not
to waste any more time with us or our loved one. He
could raise his hand and summon two men with beheading
swords to enter the torture chamber. Two other men
could suddenly grab our hair and the hair of our loved
one and pull our heads upward and straight so that our
necks are at their fullest length. Then we could feel
the cold steel of the blade on our neck for just a
moment as it touches our hot skin before slicing
cleanly through our necks and bringing us to a sudden,
painless death, and into the arms of Jesus in heaven
(2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23): "Well done!
My good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy
of thy Lord" (Matthew 25:21, Psalms 16:11).

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we
deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Timothy 2:12).

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ,
not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his
sake" (Philippians 1:29).

"... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and
which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with
Christ" (Revelation 20:4).

 

[Verity.45]

The wedding does not follow wrath, it follows the 2000 year "tribulation".

Do you believe these '2000 yrs. of tribulation' are separate from the 'great tribulation' (of 7 yrs), Jen?

 

[Ghost air]

Greetings,

So why would some people believe that only some members of the church (those who happen to be alive at the time) go through the great tribulation ? Many of the dead in Christ (members of the church) will not be there obviously because they're deceased.

Bad timing to be alive ? Is that it ?

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Well my concern has been what might this do to some who were expecting to be raptured and find themselves in the midst of these events they weren’t supposed to be here for? Consider the way some accuse Daniel of being a false prophet. This is because of incorrect interpretations of some of his prophecies. However, because some are convinced that a particular interpretation is correct they say that Daniel was a false prophet. Some argue that he probably lived after many of these historical events had happened, and that is why his prophecies seem uncannily accurate up to a point. Once the author begins speculating about events that are future to him then it all falls apart because things do not happen as he predicted. There is a very real danger here. Once you assert that Daniel was a false prophet then what are you saying about Christ? He affirmed Daniel as a prophet. Thus if Daniel was a false prophet then Christ must be a false Messiah.

Of course none of that is true. However, what happens to the person that is convinced they will be taken away from this earth before these things come to pass if they find themselves here when it happens? What does that do to their faith? I’m not saying that everyone that believes in pre-trib is going to lose their faith. This isn’t a condemnation. I don’t believe eschatology should be a dividing point. I do believe people should be aware of other views, and, most importantly, search the Scriptures themselves to see what things are true. From my own experience, I believe God has to open a person’s understanding to some things. Just as Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal who Christ was to him, but it was God who did, I think that God must open our understanding to His prophetic word. I have faith that He will.

“And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” (Dan 12:8-9)

 

[Ghost air]

The question remains unanswered. Why would only some members of the body of Christ (His Church, His bride to be), be cast into great tribulation when the Day of the Lord comes (as a thief in the night), while the other members who are asleep (dead in Christ) are not ?

I find it quite revealing that the cry is made at midnight (during the night) that the Bridegroom is coming. And it also reveals that they all arose at this time to trim their lamps. Not some of them arose, it says they all arose.

The bible says that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. A thief comes to steal something away that is precious. What might be precious to God that would be taken away in the night ?

Ghost air (formerly Etide)

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

The question remains unanswered. Why would only some members of the body of Christ (His Church, His bride to be), be cast into great tribulation when the Day of the Lord comes (as a thief in the night), while the other members who are asleep (dead in Christ) are not ?

Hi Ghost air. Well, one thing for sure, unless Christ returns first, some of us are going to die before the tribulation as some already have. Death is not exactly an appealing way to go to your rest, and before you die, I would say that dying in itself is a tribulation. Not all just suddenly drop dead with a heart attack, or go in their sleep. Many suffer with diseases like cancer that eats your body organs up, and the pain is horrendous. I found this verse one time when questioning why seemingly good Christians die horrible deaths, and it points to the grace and mercy of God...Isaiah 57:1-2 ~ The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.
I believe that God knows every second of our beginnings all of the way to our endings, and what happens all during our lives. In His mercy, He goes ahead and takes us before it gets to an evil apsect of it that we might have trouble handling.

I find it quite revealing that the cry is made at midnight (during the night) that the Bridegroom is coming. And it also reveals that they all arose at this time to trim their lamps. Not some of them arose, it says they all arose.

Yes, but if you will notice that there were 5 wise and five foolish virgins in that parable. Five of those folks didn't have enough oil in those lamps. Trimming the lamps is talking about the wicks, so yes they all trimmed the wicks, but if you don't have any oil, those wicks aren't going to burn. Five weren't ready.

The bible says that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. A thief comes to steal something away that is precious. What might be precious to God that would be taken away in the night?

The Day of The Lord is a time of judgment on the earth against evil people. If you look at all Day of The Lord verses in the bible, it isn't a happy time for the earth for those who are lost. It is also the same day as the resurrection and catching away of the saints....thus...Day of The Lord.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Hi Ghost Air,

There are two questions we must ask. First, “what” will come as a thief in the night? Next, we must ask upon whom “it” will come as a thief in the night? This particular phrase is used twice in the New Testament.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2Pe 3:10)

“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” (1Th 5:2)

The answer to the first question is given in these verses. The Day of The Lord is what will come as a thief in the night. To answer the second question we need simply look at 1Th 5:4, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” In that verse Paul reveals that this day should not overtake the saints as a thief. In other words they should recognize the season because they have been given the signs to look for, and they are remaining vigilant in their watch for the great and terrible Day of The Lord. He goes on to exhort his brethren to remain sober and watchful, and not to sleep as those that “sleep in the night” (a metaphor for ignorance). So it becomes clear that the ones upon whom this day will come as a thief in the night are those who are not watching; those that sleep in the night.

Paul is simply echoing the words of Christ. In Matthew 24:32-34 Christ gives the parable of the fig tree. To paraphrase, He states that when the branch is tender and you see the leaves on the fig tree you know that summer is near. He revealed to his disciples that in the same way, when they see the signs He provided them coming to pass they will know that the time of His return and the end of the age is near. He was, after all, answering the disciples’ question asked earlier in Matthew 24:3, “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Christ goes on to say that that generation will not pass until all things are fulfilled (those that witness these events take place). Peter makes it clear he is referring to the Day in which the heavens and earth will pass away and a new heavens and a new earth will be created. In Revelation we see that this event happens at then end of the Day of The Lord; the end of the “1000 years”. We know he is referring to that day which will dawn with the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Ghost air]

Hi Ghost air. Well, one thing for sure, unless Christ returns first, some of us are going to die before the tribulation as some already have. Death is not exactly an appealing way to go to your rest, and before you die, I would say that dying in itself is a tribulation. Not all just suddenly drop dead with a heart attack, or go in their sleep. Many suffer with diseases like cancer that eats your body organs up, and the pain is horrendous. I found this verse one time when questioning why seemingly good Christians die horrible deaths, and it points to the grace and mercy of God...Isaiah 57:1-2 ~ The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.
I believe that God knows every second of our beginnings all of the way to our endings, and what happens all during our lives. In His mercy, He goes ahead and takes us before it gets to an evil apsect of it that we might have trouble handling.

The point is that there are many who have died in Christ and they have not gone through the great tribulation. With the Post Trib view, you have some of Christ's church going through the tribulation and others who obviously do not.

Yes, but if you will notice that there were 5 wise and five foolish virgins in that parable. Five of those folks didn't have enough oil in those lamps. Trimming the lamps is talking about the wicks, so yes they all trimmed the wicks, but if you don't have any oil, those wicks aren't going to burn. Five weren't ready.

Again I think that you are missing the point. IF the post trib view says that only some of the church goes through the tribulation while the remainder of the body of Christ does not, then it doesn't line up with what scripture says, because scripture speaks of all of them arising, regardless of the fact that half of them were not ready.

The

Day of The Lord is a time of judgment on the earth against evil people. If you look at all Day of The Lord verses in the bible, it isn't a happy time for the earth for those who are lost. It is also the same day as the resurrection and catching away of the saints....thus...Day of The Lord.

Once again, you seem to have missed the point. I asked a simple question with respect to what is precious that might be taken away in the night ?

Ghost air

 

[Ghost air]

Hi Ghost Air,

There are two questions we must ask. First, “what” will come as a thief in the night? Next, we must ask upon whom “it” will come as a thief in the night? This particular phrase is used twice in the New Testament.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2Pe 3:10)

“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” (1Th 5:2)

The answer to the first question is given in these verses. The Day of The Lord is what will come as a thief in the night. To answer the second question we need simply look at 1Th 5:4, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” In that verse Paul reveals that this day should not overtake the saints as a thief. In other words they should recognize the season because they have been given the signs to look for, and they are remaining vigilant in their watch for the great and terrible Day of The Lord. He goes on to exhort his brethren to remain sober and watchful, and not to sleep as those that “sleep in the night” (a metaphor for ignorance). So it becomes clear that the ones upon whom this day will come as a thief in the night are those who are not watching; those that sleep in the night.

You're making a good case that the church will not be taken through the great tribulation. The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night for those who are not in Christ. Again, what does a thief come to steal away ? Something precious. The thief does not come in the Day, but rather in the night, before the day.

Paul is simply echoing the words of Christ. In Matthew 24:32-34 Christ gives the parable of the fig tree. To paraphrase, He states that when the branch is tender and you see the leaves on the fig tree you know that summer is near. He revealed to his disciples that in the same way, when they see the signs He provided them coming to pass they will know that the time of His return and the end of the age is near. He was, after all, answering the disciples’ question asked earlier in Matthew 24:3, “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Christ goes on to say that that generation will not pass until all things are fulfilled (those that witness these events take place). Peter makes it clear he is referring to the Day in which the heavens and earth will pass away and a new heavens and a new earth will be created. In Revelation we see that this event happens at then end of the Day of The Lord; the end of the “1000 years”. We know he is referring to that day which will dawn with the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think that you're still missing the point which I tried to make earlier. Why do post trib people think that only some of the church goes through the great tribulation ?

 

[Ghost air]

Let me ask the post trib people this.

Do you believe that the DAY OF THE LORD begins the great tribulation ?

Do you believe that the church is Christ's bride to be ?

If the questions above are answered YES, then how do post tribbers reconcile the fact that the call is made at midnight that the Bridegroom is coming ?

See the point ?

Post tribbers say that some of the church (Christ's bride) goes through the great tribuation, which is the DAY of the Lord. Scripture shows that the call is made at midnight for the 10 virgins.

So how can the virgins go through the tribulation in that DAY if they were called to the marriage during the NIGHT ?

 

[zeke37]

Let me ask the post trib people this.

Do you believe that the DAY OF THE LORD begins the great tribulation ?
​

Hi....I do not know any post tribber that believes the Day of the Lord begins the Tribulation....rather that the Day of the Lord ends the tribulation and begins the Millennium...when Christ Comes here with the Dead.....and gathers the elect alive to them...here.......1000 years...the day of the Lord.

Do you believe that the church is Christ's bride to be ?
​

some...as firstfruits...not all, only God knows who is true and who is not...many will need refinement in the Millennium, which means that they will end up falling for Satan's flood of lies and worship him as he pretends to be Messiah returned in this soon coming hour of temptation (tribulation, not the day of the Lord)...Christians actually thinking that Satan is Jesus Christ returned....(2Cor11:14-15, Rev13:11) but they shall be refined and saved in the Lord's Day...(1Cor5:4-5)

If the questions above are answered YES, then how do post tribbers reconcile the fact that the call is made at midnight that the Bridegroom is coming ?
​

we (post tribbers as a whole) do not...

See the point ?

Post tribbers say that some of the church (Christ's bride) goes through the great tribuation,
​

all of the church....either protected by the Holy Spirit and kept from temptation by being Sealed with the Truth, or not protected and thus marked of the beast

which is the DAY of the Lord.
​

no it is not...I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

Scripture shows that the call is made at midnight for the 10 virgins.
​

So how can the virgins go through the tribulation in that DAY if they were called to the marriage during the NIGHT ?
​

you misunderstand the timeline at the moment...

 

[Ghost air]

Do you believe that the DAY OF THE LORD begins the great tribulation ?​

​

Hi....I do not know any post tribber that believes the Day of the Lord begins the Tribulation....rather that the Day of the Lord ends the tribulation and begins the Millennium...when Christ Comes here with the Dead.....and gathers the elect alive to them...here.......1000 years...the day of the Lord.

How can the Day of the Lord END the tribulation if we're told that in that Day the heavens and the earth will melt away with fervent heat ?

Post tribbers say that some of the church (Christ's bride) goes through the great tribuation,

all of the church....either protected by the Holy Spirit and kept from temptation by being Sealed with the Truth, or not protected and thus marked of the beast

ALL of the church goes through the great tribuation ? Then you must believe that the dead in Christ (deceased members of the church) are RAISED first... otherwise how could they go through the tribuation ?

So how can you say that ALL the church will go through it ?

So you are saying that the dead in Christ are raised and then they will go through the great tribuation ? Is that it ?

​