Pre-nups

[Tamara224]

Not in Washington honey! No such thing as a fair divorce court here.
I love the analogy, by the way.

What analogy?

But what's interesting, is statistically, women just as willing to trade up as males are! Ironically, I was reading that earlier this week, I wish I could find the link.

Yeah, well, you know that 99.999% of statistics are made up on the spot, right?

 

[Tamara224]

I am not a lawyer, and I have not thoroughly researched this subject, so please do not hold my ignorance against me. That said...

I would strongly prefer that she sign a pre-nup (or something that accomplishes goals similar to the popular notion of a pre-nup). That way, if she decides to flake out on our family, we can *hope* to avoid *some* of the legal hassles that might otherwise go on for years. It would be better for us, and better for our kids. Of course, if she plans on being faithful and keeping her vows, then she shouldn't have any qualms about signing it.

The fact that they put airbags in cars doesn't mean that drivers want to drive into telephone poles. Rather, they are there to provide a measure of safety in the event of a disaster. I see pre-nups (or something that accomplishes goals similar to the popular notion of a pre-nup) as much like an airbag.

I want to avoid lawyers as much as possible if our marriage falls apart. Chances are good that if we are going through a divorce, we may be on the brink of financial ruin (as I've seen happen with others). The last thing that I would want to do is pay for some third party's new McMansion.

Before anybody questions why I have such an apparent 'lack of trust', please let me explain. I come from a functional family. My parents are still happily married after 50 years. However, as I look around, I notice that not all spouses even respect the institution of marriage.... and I also notice that people can change a lot over time. To top it off, I have seen the legal mess that divorce can cause. As such, I think it is only prudent to make arrangements that potentially soften the blow of divorce should it become our only option. To me, saying "I would never want to sign a pre-nup because it indicates a lack of trust" is much like saying "I would never want to drive a car with airbags because that indicates a desire to drive into telephone poles".

Just as to the legal mess part... Sorry, but the idea that a pre-nup will actually reduce your legal fees is hilarious!!! It will probably triple them. Because if your soon-to-be ex-wife is the kind of person who is going to take you to the cleaners for your money, she's the kind of person who is going to contest the pre-nup and keep you in court for years to come. Plus, this way you have to pay the lawyer up front too (for drafting the pre-nup).

Seriously, the biggest nightmare of a divorce that I've ever worked on involved a pre-nup and more than half of the legal fees (equalling somewhere in the vicinity of $200,000.00 by the time it was all said and done) were expended on fighting to make sure the pre-nup was valid.

 

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

That's exactly what I did, married an old fashioned girl who had the same beliefs I did, then after 5 years decided she changed her mind.
She still talks the good christian girl talk too, at least, till you get to know her.

So what are you trying to say to any potential husbands out there?

Wow...sorry that you've had a really, really bad experience.

I feel horrible for the amount of men who have had their masculinity basically stripped away by females who are out for money. It's horrid! :o

I'm not trying to say anything by that remark soccerdad...its just that when you marry again, it will be essential that you trust your wife with your children. If you don't, I seriously wouldn't consider marrying her. I mean...wow. This would be HUGE in regards to your relationship.

 

[dluvs2trvl]

Ok...so it has been pointed out to me (by someone who's opinion I respect) that possibly I came on to strong in some of my posts...I apologize if that is how they came across...

When I feel passionately about a subject and when I feel that my voice isn't being heard then I do come on strong...but I wasn't taking anything personally...I do think that a couple of the comments made about women who won't sign a pre-nup being gold diggers were offensive but other than that I understand that we all come from different stages and experiences in life so we are all going to have different opinions on the subject of pre-nups...

But isn't that why we start threads - to encourage discussion and debate...

There are just some of us who won't back down from our position!

Anyways, I do understand what many of you are saying about the validity and need for a pre-nup and I am willing to concede that if I met someone and fell madly in love with him and was going to marry him and then he presented me with the idea of a pre-nup - I would have to pause and consider it...at this point, I seriously don't know if I would agree to it though - but I'm also not madly in love with anyone at the moment so I'm making that statement without those emotions being involved...

Anyways, I'm enjoying the discussion here and appreciate the fact that everyone is contributing and discussing the topic...

Ok...carry on...

 

[justaGUYnamedROB]

Ok...so it has been pointed out to me (by someone who's opinion I respect) that possibly I came on to strong in some of my posts...I apologize if that is how they came across...

Don't worry, if they're a big boy then they can handle it.

 

[AirForceTeacher]

but I'm also not madly in love with anyone at the moment

So I guess I need to get Braticus to look for another match, huh?

 

[dluvs2trvl]

So I guess I need to get Braticus to look for another match, huh?

I said I wasn't madly in love yet...there's still hope for you AFT!

 

[soccerdad66]

Wow...sorry that you've had a really, really bad experience.

I'm not trying to say anything by that remark soccerdad...its just that when you marry again, it will be essential that you trust your wife with your children. If you don't, I seriously wouldn't consider marrying her. I mean...wow. This would be HUGE in regards to your relationship.

I trusted the last one, and I definitely wouldn't get married if I don't trust her.

I know not all women like that, since I know many who are very trustworthy, but it doesn't mean that if I felt it was necessary given my situation (currently, not an issue) that if I needed to, I would do it to protect my son. That's all I'm saying.

 

[soccerdad66]

Yeah, well, you know that 99.999% of statistics are made up on the spot, right?

Exactly, it's almost as subjective as personal experience

 

[Niels]

Just as to the legal mess part... Sorry, but the idea that a pre-nup will actually reduce your legal fees is hilarious!!! It will probably triple them. Because if your soon-to-be ex-wife is the kind of person who is going to take you to the cleaners for your money, she's the kind of person who is going to contest the pre-nup and keep you in court for years to come. Plus, this way you have to pay the lawyer up front too (for drafting the pre-nup).

Seriously, the biggest nightmare of a divorce that I've ever worked on involved a pre-nup and more than half of the legal fees (equalling somewhere in the vicinity of $200,000.00 by the time it was all said and done) were expended on fighting to make sure the pre-nup was valid.

I wouldn't hesitate to consult a lawyer friend or two while drafting the pre-nup. That's part of being prepared. The point of the pre-nup is to cover certain bases beforehand, when things aren't so messy. While it is certainly possible that she might contest everything under the sun, not everybody does that... partly due to the inconvenience. The more inconvenient it is for her (or me, I suppose), the lower the odds that it will go through further litigation. Do I think it totally eliminates the possibility? No. It just seems to me that for every nightmare divorce like the one you mentioned, there are probably many more that have been mitigated due to diligently drafted pre-nups.

 

[Labayu]

This is something I've actually thought about recently.

I've seen way too many christian marragies either end in divorce or nearly end in divorce because on partner has a breakdoen or a temporay/permanant crisis of faith usually caused or resulting in an affair or a desire to be with someone else.

Yes it's bad to start with that expectation, but you never know if you or your partner may develop mental illness, have a nevious breakdown or just decide one day that God is doesn't exist or all paths lead to God aka they (or you) feel absolutely ok to shack up with someone else... or God forbid you both died and left the children with the next of kin/legal guardians.

I'm not sure about pre-nups for $$$ but I'd sure want to decide on potential legal guardians should both partners die. Also (and I'm sure it wouldn;t stand up in court) something about raising the kids as christians (and defining what that meant, churches they need to go to) in the evient of a divorce.

 

[Luther073082]

How about I post this reverse. . .

I see a pre-nup as the signee's personal guarentee that they aren't going to initate a divorce and try to take their spouse's assets.

I'm probably not going to get one because I don't have assets that significant to protect. However if I did have significant assets you can bet your life I'd ask for a pre-nup.

Why because if you can't sign a personal guarentee that you are not going to marry me and then dump me for the cash, then it sounds to me like you intend on marrying me and dumping me for the cash.

 

[dluvs2trvl]

How about I post this reverse. . .

I see a pre-nup as the signee's personal guarentee that they aren't going to initate a divorce and try to take their spouse's assets.

I'm probably not going to get one because I don't have assets that significant to protect. However if I did have significant assets you can bet your life I'd ask for a pre-nup.

Why because if you can't sign a personal guarentee that you are not going to marry me and then dump me for the cash, then it sounds to me like you intend on marrying me and dumping me for the cash.

Which means you have trust issues that you need to work through before you marry anyone!

If you can't trust her with your money then why would you trust her to have and raise your children?

 

[Luther073082]

Which means you have trust issues that you need to work through before you marry anyone!

I could say not signing one was a committment issue. They are afraid to commit to negative financial implications if they intiate a divorce. You call it a trust issue but it would make me trust them more if they did sign it. Heck I might almost write void on it after they had already signed. Its because it shows to me they are committed to marrying me and not my $$.

If you can't trust her with your money then why would you trust her to have and raise your children?

Simple, they are her children too. Plus if my children are harmed by her, then I can legally seperate them from her. However I can not legally stop a woman whom I have married from filing for divorce 2 months later and eventually running off with half my stuff.

And let me also add that this is not only for significant assets but also asset disparity too. If we both have 50 million dollars to bring to the table or something like that, then there is no need, it isn't worth it. But if I have 50 million dollars and she's broke or even middle class then the pre-nup is her guarentee and committment to a real marriage and not a vehicle to steal money.

 

[dluvs2trvl]

And let me also add that this is not only for significant assets but also asset disparity too. If we both have 50 million dollars to bring to the table or something like that, then there is no need, it isn't worth it. But if I have 50 million dollars and she's broke or even middle class then the pre-nup is her guarentee and committment to a real marriage and not a vehicle to steal money.

The fact that you would use the phrase "steal money" when talking about a scenerio involving the woman you would be married to speaks volumes...

I know that kof doesn't like the phrase - agree to disagree - but I think we're going to have to do that Luther...

I could talk about how demanding that someone sign a pre-nup sounds a lot like trying to control the marriage and the spouse....or I could talk about how not signing a pre-nup has absolutely nothing to do with being able to commit to a relationship and actually is a reflection of the ability for the person demanding it to trust someone...I could also talk about how children are sooooo much more valuable than money and I don't understand how you could say that you'd trust a woman with your children but not with your money because if she hurt the kids you could take legal action...why would you put your children in jeopardy then if you really don't think you can trust her??? (I know we are talking in extremes here but I think it is a valid question)...but I won't talk about any of those things...I'll just let it go...

 

[alfrodull]

There's no way I would marry anybody who put so little trust in me that they demanded a pre-nup.

Is it logical to want a pre-nup? Perhaps, in some cases. But if you look at pure logic, there's no reason to get married in the first place!

 

[Luther073082]

The fact that you would use the phrase "steal money" when talking about a scenerio involving the woman you would be married to speaks volumes...

I know that kof doesn't like the phrase - agree to disagree - but I think we're going to have to do that Luther...

I could talk about how demanding that someone sign a pre-nup sounds a lot like trying to control the marriage and the spouse....or I could talk about how not signing a pre-nup has absolutely nothing to do with being able to commit to a relationship and actually is a reflection of the ability for the person demanding it to trust someone...I could also talk about how children are sooooo much more valuable than money and I don't understand how you could say that you'd trust a woman with your children but not with your money because if she hurt the kids you could take legal action...why would you put your children in jeopardy then if you really don't think you can trust her??? (I know we are talking in extremes here but I think it is a valid question)...but I won't talk about any of those things...I'll just let it go...

Its fine but you have to understand the conflict within myself about this.

I personally see it in reverse that not signing one is a lack of committment. I don't care how much money my fiance had, if she requested a fair pre-nup before the marriage then I would sign as a sign of my committment to the marriage.

This also I think has to do with the logic/emotions view. Yes I emotionally belive something will last forever, but logically I still ask "what happens if it doesn't"

Is it logical to want a pre-nup? Perhaps, in some cases. But if you look at pure logic, there's no reason to get married in the first place!

Yes there is, your emotions desire a partner and your logic does not conflict.

The logic/emotion decision making is only determined by when logic and emotions conflict. If it is not illogical to me to make a decision based on emotion, then it is very easy to make that decision based on emotion. Just like if there is no emotional connection to a logical decision it is very easy for you to make the logical decision.

But when logic and emotion conflicts some people (mostly women) make the emotional decision and some people (mostly men) make the logical decision.

 

[Annova]

This question was posted in the Women's Discussion forum and I thought it might be interesting to include the guys and to hear what single people think about the subject...

What are your feelings about pre-nuptial agreements? What would you think if your fiancee presented you with a pre-nup to sign? Do you expect to have a pre-nup before you get married? Does it matter to you either way? If you did have one what sorts of things would you expect to have in the pre-nup?

Planning for a divorce isn't a good sign.

I wish people would stop acting like it's an insurance plan and/or a safty net.

If you don't believe the marriage will last then do your SO a favor and not marry him/her. And if your for one then ask yourself why you have to plan for a divorce. Good indicator that you lack trust in the relationship IMO.

Marriage isn't a game nor should it be treated like one.

 

[dluvs2trvl]

Its fine but you have to understand the conflict within myself about this.

I personally see it in reverse that not signing one is a lack of committment. I don't care how much money my fiance had, if she requested a fair pre-nup before the marriage then I would sign as a sign of my committment to the marriage.

This also I think has to do with the logic/emotions view. Yes I emotionally belive something will last forever, but logically I still ask "what happens if it doesn't"

I understand what you are saying and I too see the logical side of it...but I guess for me I see it as starting the marriage out on the wrong foot so to speak where you might see it as starting it out on the right foot...

It's all good...everyone has their own opinion and point of view...what really matters is if the two people who are getting married can come to an agreement about signing or not signing a pre-nup...if not, then they've got a problem...

And until we are put in that position with all those emotions involved - none of us really knows how we would react or what we would do...

 

[DeathMagus]

There's no way I would marry anybody who put so little trust in me that they demanded a pre-nup.

Is it logical to want a pre-nup? Perhaps, in some cases. But if you look at pure logic, there's no reason to get married in the first place!

Not logical to get married in the first place? What on earth makes you say that?