• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Pre, Mid, or Post Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Chris Judo, Aug 8, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Photini

    Photini Gone.

    +522
    Seeker
    Married

    God is greatly glorified in the martyrdom of His saints. "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." Psalm 116:15
    It is mentioned several times in Revelation that 'the beast' is allowed to make war with the saints and will overcome them and kill them.
    'the hour that is going to come upon the whole world'... is the hour of Judgement. Those who are purified through Christ will not suffer in the fire of judgement, but will be illumined in it.
    It is sad that we live in a generation that hopes to be rescued from the great honor of suffering for Christ, when many other religions are actively seeking to have martyrs. I admit and confess that I am of weak faith now, but pray that should trial come upon me, that God give me courage to endure patiently and without complaining.
     
  2. kiwichristian

    kiwichristian A Self-Professed Jesus Lover! <img src="http://www

    548
    +81
    Christian
    Well, I dont care too much which rapture it is. What matters to me most is living for Jesus in the here and now;) As long as we are ready for the rapture, what good is there in trying to figure out when the rapture will be? Lets just wait and see:)
     
  3. ephod

    ephod Member

    198
    +0
    Christian
    k
     
  4. kiwichristian

    kiwichristian A Self-Professed Jesus Lover! <img src="http://www

    548
    +81
    Christian
    Theres a pan-trib as well? good grief:eek:

    As I said, I dont think it matters which I am.
    I am a christian, serving the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Whenever the rapture comes, so be it.
    As long as I am ready.
     
  5. sracer

    sracer Humble Servant

    79
    +2
    kiwichristian, I think that the "pan-trib" view is not really a theological viewpoint but a clever way of saying that when the tribulation occurs is irrelevant in the long run. So don't worry about yet another view. :)

    Studying prophecy is important for us. Each day brings us closer to the events of the End times... it could be a day away, a year, 10 years, or 10 generations. But we need to be aware so that if the time is soon at hand, we won't be one of those who will be deceived.
     
  6. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    Because we know that no women are in heaven prior to the opening of the seventh seal, no one --- and I mean no one -- should expect the rapture to take place before this seventh event....

    I quote:

    "When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

    See -- no way women could be in heaven at this time... ;)
     
  7. kiwichristian

    kiwichristian A Self-Professed Jesus Lover! <img src="http://www

    548
    +81
    Christian
    sracer, thats a good point you made :)
     
  8. ephod

    ephod Member

    198
    +0
    Christian
    l
     
  9. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    While unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles are indeed separate from the church, note again that no scripture says that the church and Israel are mutually exclusive, for a believer can be a member of the church and a member of Israel at the same time:

    Church member Paul: "I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1).

    Church member Paul: "I am verily a man which am a Jew" (Acts 22:3).

    Church member Paul: "Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I" (2 Corinthians 11:22).

    .

    Note again that nobody, Jew or Gentile, can ever come to the Father apart from faith in Jesus:

    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).

    "By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

    "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

    .

    And nobody, Jew or Gentile, can have faith in Jesus without being part of the church:

    "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    "For the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain" (Acts 28:20).

    "To give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12).

    .

    Note again that only a remnant of physical Israel will be saved:

    "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" (Romans 9:27).

    "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Romans 9:8).

    "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6).

    "Because of unbelief they were broken off" (Romans 11:20).

    "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham" (John 8:39).

    "Think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matthew 3:9-10).

    .

    Therefore, when Paul says "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26), "all Israel" doesn't refer to all of physical Israel, but to all of the commonwealth and olive tree of Israel, which now includes all of the Gentiles and Jews who are saved (Romans 10:12-13), for Paul expressly says that Gentile believers are no longer strangers and foreigners in the commonwealth and olive tree of Israel, but are now fellow citizens and fellow branches with Jewish believers: "At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:12, 19); "Some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17), and this olive tree and commonwealth will also include the remnant of physical Israel who will be saved at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-13:6), for "they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in... and so all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:23-26).

    .

    I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of us Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).

    During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try some of us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end.

    I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).

    I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's (eklektos) sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).

    I believe we in the church are the elect, and need to put on longsuffering: "Put on therefore, as the elect (eklektos) of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" (Colossians 3:12).

    Note that at the 2nd coming some of us elect will still be "alive and remain" (1 Thessalonians 4:15) on the earth: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect (eklektos) from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27).

    .

    Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    I believe it's important to make this distinction because I expect that many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming Jesus for causing all of their suffering and all of the suffering of their little ones in the tribulation, when in reality it will be Satan, fallen angels, evil men, and natural disasters that will be causing it. I expect that Satan is going to try to use this suffering to turn all of mankind -- including all of us Christians -- totally against Jesus, to get us to believe that Jesus is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants us and our little ones to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from Jesus, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

    In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive, "for God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9)?

    .

    Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

    .

    I believe we are supposed to know, for Jesus laid it out plain and simple for us believers that we must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and that his coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8); "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23).
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Note that Jesus comes on people as a thief only "if" they aren't watching: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3).

    Paul said that if we watch for the 2nd coming it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

    Note that between the 6th and 7th vials, at the very end of the tribulation, Jesus is still exhorting us to keep watching for his coming: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth" (Revelation 16:15).

    .

    Note that the Bible nowhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Paul says that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). We Christians will go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52, Paul is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." The scriptures don't teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture of the church.

    The apostles knew from the beginning that the rapture could not be imminent because Jesus told Peter that he would grow old and be killed (John 21:18-19), and Jesus told the apostles that they would first have to have the Holy Spirit come upon them, after which they themselves would be witnesses for Jesus "in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8). Also, Jesus told Paul that he must bear witness of him at Rome (Acts 23:11). The doctrine of imminence would make Jesus' statements in John 21:18-19, Acts 1:8, and Acts 23:11 into lies.

    .

    If there are no signs before the rapture, what are "these things" in Luke 21:28: "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh"?

    .

    Note that there are no longer any OT believers, for now all believers of all past ages are part of the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4-5), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32), for now all believers of all past ages believe in Christ's finished work on the cross (Ephesians 4:8-10; 1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Peter 4:6), which is our salvation (Matthew 26:28), and now all believers of all past ages are after Pentecost.

    Note that no scripture says that there can be anyone saved outside of the body of Christ, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    Note that no one at any time can be eternally saved without believing in Jesus and his finished work on the cross: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6); "By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

    This is why Jesus had to bring the New Covenant to the saints who died before the cross; otherwise, their sins could never have been forgiven: "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28); "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6).

    I believe that after the resurrection Christ went and preached the completion of the gospel to the former OT (now NT) believers in the bosom of Abraham (1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Peter 4:6), and that he led them up into heaven with him when he ascended (Ephesians 4:8-10).

    "Being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-19); "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead" (1 Peter 4:6); "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Ephesians 4:8-10).

    Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23) and the bride (Ephesians 5:30-32), and we must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).

    .

    Note that it says of the former OT (now NT) saints: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Hebrews 11:13); "they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Hebrews 11:16).

    Isn't the land promise to Abraham for all those in Christ? "I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land" (Genesis 17:8); "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:16, 29); "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations" (Romans 4:13-17).

    So won't the land of Israel be divided among both Jews and Gentiles in the millennium? "So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 47:21-23).

    "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee" (Zechariah 2:11).

    "At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:12, 19).

    "Some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17).

    .

    In the pre-trib view, are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Jews? Are there Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?

    .

    Note that no scripture promises anyone a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians will go through the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).
     
  11. Yael Zedekiah

    Yael Zedekiah New Member

    5
    +0
    Post tribulation and the second coming are the same and it will occur before the 1000 year reign of christ just like the bible said it would. There is no secret coming of Jesus before the rapture. When he comes all will see his glory and hear the trumpets sound.

    lasttrumpet.com
     
  12. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    so you do not see a difference of meeting us in the air verse touching the ground and bring for wrath?

    interesting
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...