Pre, Mid, or Post Rapture?

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ephod said:
A Brethren IN CHRIST

Take a few minutes to read my study of Romans 11; it will help you to undersand who and what Israel is in the time of the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Much of the church today is under the delusion that God is operating with two covenants (ie. the Church and Israel) when in fact if you read Hebrews 8 you will see that it is not the case.

This false understanding of scripture has crept into the church through the theology of modern dispensationalism and has leavened most of the evangelical community.

Romans 11

PAUL asks,

VERSE ONE: I say then, has God rejected His people? God forbid! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul, in the chapters previous has told his readers that Israel has "stumbled at the stumbling stone" and haven't attained to God's righteousness. He has quoted from Isaiah how Israel would would fail to respond and others would take up their place.
Now Paul is clarifying something, POINTING TO HIMSELF, not to some future restoration of literal Israel in 2000 years, he is asking a question that is on the minds of many of his contemporaries. The question is: "Are all Jews now lost?" Paul, refers to himself, and says, "That would mean I am lost, for I am a Jew, from the tribe of Benjamin. If all Jews are now lost, that would mean I am lost too and there is no hope for any of us."

BUT HAS GOD CAST OFF HIS PEOPLE? Absolutely not!

God did not cast them off, they chose not to accept HIM!
But God still has "a remnant".

Now the question is, who are His people? Earlier Paul had quoted from Isaiah: "I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved, and it sall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to the, You are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Romans 9:25)
He had declared that "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." He then says it's NOT THE CHILDREN BY THE FLESH, but the children of "promise" the children of "Isaac". (9:6-8)

So the question is a serious question-- WHO ARE GOD'S people? Is Israel cast off? Who are the true Israel?

Remember, the original "Israel" (Jacob) was actually a child of Isaac, but Paul just said not all that are of "Israel" (Jacob) are ISRAEL--so it's not even all the descendants of Isaac. So this means something more than "literal"-- it means "those who believe in the PROMISE" are the true Israel--and that promise is CHRIST.


VERSE 2: God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
What is Paul referring to here?
Who are the people whom He foreknew.
Just go back a couple chapters--

Romans 8.28
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Obviously God's elect-- the ones he FOREKNEW, are those who responded to CHRIST. These will not be rejected, indeed Paul goes on in that chapter to say NOTHING can separate them from the love of God.
Back to Romans 11


VERSE 2b: Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the Elijah section--how he pleads with God against Israel?
VERSE 3: Lord, they have killed Your prophets, torn down Your altars; and I am the only one left, and they are trying to take my life!
VERSE 4: But what was God's reply to him? I have left 7,000 men for Myself who have not bowed down to Baal.
VERSE 5: In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace.
VERSE 6: Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
VERSE 7: What then? Israel (as a nation) has not obtained that which he seeks for: BUT the election HAS obtained it
Who is the "election" of verse 11:28 which PAUL calls the BELOVED? This is a KEY issue to understand in this passage. We must understand WHO does PAUL say is part of the election?
See the verses above--Romans 11:5 and 7.
(Like in Elijah's time God had his 5000) So too, at the present time there is a remnant elected by grace...
What then? What Israel (as a nation) sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elected did.

Is this election all of "natural Israel"? No-- it is the branches remaining on the "tree of Israel" after the "unbelieving branches" are cut off, as we will see as we continue this discussion.

The true TREE OF ISRAEL is comprised of THE ELECTION OF GRACE!!

Paul is DEFINING THE TRUE ISRAEL--
He is leading the people's minds AWAY from the concept of "natural Israel" and building the concept of "spiritual Israel" and how it comes together.
(Whereas modern dispensationalists attempt to start with the concept of "spiritual Israel" and lead back into "national Israel" but we see that is BACKWARDS to what Paul is doing.)


VERSE 7: What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for, but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened,
VERSE 8: as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day.
Now the question arises: WHAT CAUSES THE HARDENING.
Do you believe that God deliberately closed the minds of the Jewish nation so they would not receive their Messiah? Was this God's plan to allow the gospel to go to the Gentiles?

NOW I do not believe that-- (though Calvinistic thought may say so) I don't believe God deliberately made it so that the Jews could not believe any more than I believe God sends "strong delusions that they should believe a lie (2 Thess. 2:11)

What God does is show HIS TRUTH in a compelling way, but when God shows TRUTH-- people react, they either accept it or they go to GREAT LENGTHS to oppose it. Thus one can say that God "did it" but it was THEIR CHOICE and THEIR REACTION.

God didn't "shut down" the minds of the Israelites-- they shut their own minds down in opposition to compelling revelation of God through Christ.


VERSE 9: And David says: Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them.
VERSE 10: Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent continually.

In rejecting the light they walked into darkness.
The "table" refers to their "feasts". The ceremonies or "feasts" that should have pointed them to Christ, became a snare to them-- a trap. For they depended on "THE TEMPLE" and felt their security in "THE TEMPLE" rituals and refused to see what those ceremonies were all about. So they PUT UP THEIR BACKS and rejected the true lamb of God.
The Lord Jesus was the foundation of the whole Jewish economy. Its imposing services were of divine appointment. They were designed to teach the people that at the time appointed the Messiah would come to whom those ceremonies pointed. But the Jews had exalted the forms and ceremonies and had lost sight of their meaning. The traditions, maxims, and rules of so called "scholars" hid from them the lessons which God intended to convey. These maxims and traditions became an obstacle to their understanding and practice of true religion. And when the Reality came, in the person of Christ, they did not recognize in Him the fulfillment of all their types, the substance of all their shadows. They rejected the antitype, and clung to their types and useless ceremonies. They trusted to the sacrifices and ordinances themselves, instead of looking for salvation to Him to whom they pointed.

So, the greater part of Israel (literal Israel) had fallen away. This falling away was not confined to the days when Christ lived among them. The heathen ideas had long previously crept in and corrupted their connection with the true God. As Jesus said to the Jews:
John 8.42 "If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

It is that Israel (literal Israel as a nation) which has not obtained what is hoped and sought for, justification, (salvation) which they were seeking to obtain by the law, (their ceremonies) and is now under condemnation.

But the elect (those who received Christ) did find it-- they partook of the LIGHT and were not darkened!


John 1.9-12
That (Jesus the Word) was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:




continued....



Intersting thought about dispensations

why is there different commandment on eating -
Gen 2:16-17

Gen 9:1-5

Lev 11:1-47 ...vs 44

1 tim 4:3-5
Romans 14:20-23
1 cor 8:12


Dispensational verses

1 cor 9:17 ....a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things by thee christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

eph 3:2 If ye heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me[paul] to church-ward.

colossian 1:25 whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God.


This is just an example that you have not noticed in the Bible
 
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kiwichristian

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Well, for me, its pre-trib rapture.

A question: If it was post-trib rapture, why would God put us through the most turbulent, horrible, and devastating years that the planet will ever face?
It doesnt make sense to me why people believe that God would put us through that, and then take us away.
Surely the bible says that we will be rescued from the coming wrath.
Revelation 3:10 says that "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (NIV)

What do you think this verse is saying?
 
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sracer

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hehe, we indulge our intellectual nature and try to determine without a doubt when the rapture will occur. We're not supposed to know. We're supposed to have our "spiritual bags packed and ready to go at a moment's notice"... like "a thief in the night".

We are to live each day as if it was the last one before the Lord's return. Live with a sense of urgency in loving people.

Sound hermeneutics and the doctrine of imminence stick with me and I conclude that it will be a pre-trib rapture. But I know full-well that I can be wrong, so I won't try to convince those who believe differently that I am right (because I don't know for sure.;) ).

The imminence of the Lord's return means that there won't be any warning signs preceding it. If the rapture is post-trib (if you believe in the rapture at all), then you can kick back and not worry about it because you KNOW certain things have to happen BEFORE the rapture takes place. So it won't really be sudden or a surprise, will it?
 
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sracer said:
hehe, we indulge our intellectual nature and try to determine without a doubt when the rapture will occur. We're not supposed to know. We're supposed to have our "spiritual bags packed and ready to go at a moment's notice"... like "a thief in the night".

We are to live each day as if it was the last one before the Lord's return. Live with a sense of urgency in loving people.

Sound hermeneutics and the doctrine of imminence stick with me and I conclude that it will be a pre-trib rapture. But I know full-well that I can be wrong, so I won't try to convince those who believe differently that I am right (because I don't know for sure.;) ).

The imminence of the Lord's return means that there won't be any warning signs preceding it. If the rapture is post-trib (if you believe in the rapture at all), then you can kick back and not worry about it because you KNOW certain things have to happen BEFORE the rapture takes place. So it won't really be sudden or a surprise, will it?

We can know the times. But, you are correct that we are to be ready even if we had knowledge of it being in the distant future or even if we had knowledge of it being merely weeks away --- because physical death may take place in my life before the time of rapture --- in such a case, to my spirit, the time of the rapture is irrelevant.
 
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Atkin

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
1 Cor 10:32 Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God.

........God shows distinction why don't you..........

Understand WHEN GOD showed distinction as it relates to our time.

In the days of King David, there was distinction between Israel
and the Canaanites. There was a distinction between Israel
and Assyria, Israel and Medo Persia... destroyers of Jerusalem etc.

No more distinctions. Humans do not live in the past.

Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

26, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
 
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sracer

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Atkin said:
Understand WHEN GOD showed distinction as it relates to our time.

In the days of King David, there was distinction between Israel
and the Canaanites. There was a distinction between Israel
and Assyria, Israel and Medo Persia... destroyers of Jerusalem etc.

No more distinctions. Humans do not live in the past.

Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

26, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

I'm not sure what your intent was in quoting that scripture, (if you are arguing for or against dispensationalism) but it pretty clearly says "by faith" in Christ Jesus. The meaning here is that it doesn't matter what your background is, once you accept Jesus Christ you are no longer different in God's eyes.

But the important point is that you have faith/accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Jews do not. non-believers do not. There are still distinctions. Also, keep in mind that Galatians was written to the early church in Galatia... all believers.
 
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Atkin

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sracer said:
I'm not sure what your intent was in quoting that scripture, (if you are arguing for or against dispensationalism) but it pretty clearly says "by faith" in Christ Jesus. The meaning here is that it doesn't matter what your background is, once you accept Jesus Christ you are no longer different in God's eyes.

But the important point is that you have faith/accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Jews do not. non-believers do not. There are still distinctions. Also, keep in mind that Galatians was written to the early church in Galatia... all believers.

Actually I was responding to the post below.
I think that God actually separated Jews from Gentiles up till the time of Christ. However, God expects every human being to accept Christ.
What are your feelings about that and the post below?


A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
1 Cor 10:32 Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God.

........God shows distinction why don't you..........


Just to add, regarding Jews, some Jews do believe in Christ. They are not prevented from accepting Christ under free will.
 
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When are Jew in the Old Testament IN CHRIST ...if we are the same group do they have the same promises as we do NOT EVEN CLOSE

The Tribulation is the Last week of the Jews
thus they have those promises

Not the church promises They are Raptured out
 
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sracer

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Atkin said:
Actually I was responding to the post below.
I think that God actually separated Jews from Gentiles up till the time of Christ. However, God expects every human being to accept Christ.
What are your feelings about that and the post below?

Scripture supports the doctrine of dispensationalism. The Jews are God's chosen people. Gentiles can be "adopted" into the family of God by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. But the promises that God made to Israel are for her alone. God "wants" everyone to accept Christ.

As for the quote, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: " (KJV 1 Cor 10:32)

The context that the quote appears is Paul's answer to the question regarding eating the meat of animals sacrificed to idols. 10:32 instructs us that if we are dining with others who have religious dietary restrictions we are not to unnecessarily upset our dining companions by flaunting our Christian freedoms. We may restrict our diet under certain circumstances but acknowledge that we do it voluntarily out of respect for our dining companions and not out of any doctrinal limitations...because Jesus has set us free from those restrictions.

Now, as to whether or not that verse is talking about dispensationalism... I don't believe so.


Atkin said:
Just to add, regarding Jews, some Jews do believe in Christ. They are not prevented from accepting Christ under free will.

From a Biblical point of view, you are either a slave under the law, or saved by Grace, (or neither. ;) ) If a Jew accepts Jesus, then that person is a Christian and freed from the restrictions placed on them by Mosaic law.
 
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