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Pre, Mid, or Post Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Chris Judo, Aug 8, 2003.

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  1. Chris Judo

    Chris Judo New Member

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    Ive been wondering this for awhile now, and I cant seem to find it in scriptures anywhere. When will the rapture happen, before, during, or after the tribulation?
     
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  2. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    1 thes 4:13-5:23

    1cor 15:52

    1John 4:17-18

    ezek 20:37 passing under the rod talking jews only here

    2 thes 1:3-7

    Romans 5:9

    1 thes 1:10

    hope these verse help
     
  3. jayswife29

    jayswife29 Member

    294
    +3
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Good luck with this question. So many different views, so little time. Everyone will give different verses and different translations to suit their beliefs, so you will just have to pray and prepare for the rapture to happen any minute, and pray and prepare that there is a possibility that we will live through some or all of the tribulation. These forums are wonderful, you will (if your open minded) learn something new everyday. I always believed in the pre-trib rapture, until I opened my mind to other things. Now I am not positive on WHEN it will happen, but I listen to all different views. Have fun!!
     
  4. Cubbs

    Cubbs New Member

    43
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    Christian
    I once heard a Jewish (scholar I believe) comment on pre, one of interesting perspective. Basically it was this: How arrogant of Gentiles to believe everything is about them. Could it possibly be that God has some unfinished business with the nation of Israel? Anyhoo, I hold to the pan-handle theory: It will all pan out in the end cuz God's got a handle on it. :D
     
  5. Dayton

    Dayton Member

    443
    +8
    Personally, I believe in the pre-trib rapture, but I could be wrong. I also hold to the "pan-handle" theory. :)
     
  6. BrokenSoul

    BrokenSoul New Member

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    Protestant
    I believe in Pre-tribulation.
     
  7. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    verses please

    who cares about beliefs what does God word saY
     
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    Note that no scripture promises anyone a rapture before or during the tribulation. Jesus says that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians will go through the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

    .

    Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still be delivered from the wrath to come because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    I believe it's important to make this distinction because I expect that many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming Jesus for causing all of their suffering and all of the suffering of their little ones in the tribulation, when in reality it will be Satan, fallen angels, evil men, and natural disasters that will be causing it. I expect that Satan is going to try to use this suffering to turn all of mankind -- including all of us Christians -- totally against Jesus, to get us to believe that Jesus is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants us and our little ones to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from Jesus, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

    In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive, "for God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9)?

    .

    I don't believe that the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together any minute, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul says that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). We Christians will go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

    I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.
     
  9. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    If we are part of the Christ how does he give wrath unto his own body?
     
  10. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

    +2,481
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    ...
     
  11. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    What this individual is not understanding is that the Nation of Israel and the Church are two different Groups and thus two differnet promises.

    #1 Israel promised earth
    Church promised all spiritual blessings in the heavenlys eph 1:4 , eph 2:6

    #2 If J.C. is part of the body why would he give wrath against his self Eph 3:3-6 romans 5:9 Eph 5:32
     
  12. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

    375
    +3
    Protestant
    Christ had first to suffer before entering into glory. Likewise, the Church must endure suffering in order to share in that glory. Tribulation, persecution, and martyrdom are part and parcel to the Church's pilgrimmage until the very end. But, along the road, God does provide glimpses of the glory to come. If you come to worship "in the Spirit" (as John was on Patmos), you can be "raptured" this Sunday.
     
  13. ephod

    ephod Member

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    Christian
    .
     
  14. ephod

    ephod Member

    198
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    Christian
    .
     
  15. ephod

    ephod Member

    198
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    Christian
    .
     
  16. ephod

    ephod Member

    198
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    Christian
    .
     
  17. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
     
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Again, could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still be saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    I believe it's important to make this distinction because I expect that many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming Jesus for causing all of their suffering and all of the suffering of their little ones in the tribulation, when in reality it will be Satan, fallen angels, evil men, and natural disasters that will be causing it. I expect that Satan is going to try to use this suffering to turn all of mankind -- including all of us Christians -- totally against Jesus, to get us to believe that Jesus is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants us and our little ones to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from Jesus, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

    Again, in the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive, "for God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9)?

    .

    Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5).

    .

    Note that the church and Israel aren't mutually exclusive, for a believer can be a member of the church and a member of Israel at the same time:

    "For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1).

    "I am verily a man which am a Jew" (Acts 22:3).

    "Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I" (2 Corinthians 11:22).

    .

    Note that nobody, Jew or Gentile, can ever come to the Father apart from faith in Jesus:

    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).

    "By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

    "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

    .

    And nobody, Jew or Gentile, can have faith in Jesus without being part of the church:

    "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    "For the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain" (Acts 28:20).

    "To give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12).

    .

    Note that only a remnant of physical Israel will be saved:

    "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" (Romans 9:27).

    "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Romans 9:8).

    "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6).

    "Because of unbelief they were broken off" (Romans 11:20).

    "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham" (John 8:39).

    "Think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matthew 3:9-10).

    .

    Therefore, when Paul says "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26), "all Israel" doesn't refer to all of physical Israel, but to all of the commonwealth and olive tree of Israel, which now includes all of the Gentiles and Jews who are saved (Romans 10:12-13), for Paul expressly says that Gentile believers are no longer strangers and foreigners in the commonwealth and olive tree of Israel, but are now fellow citizens and fellow branches with Jewish believers: "At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:12, 19); "Some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17), and this olive tree and commonwealth will also include the remnant of physical Israel who will be saved at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-13:6), for "they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in... and so all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:23-26).

    .

    Note that it says of the former OT (now NT) saints: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Hebrews 11:13); "they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Hebrews 11:16).

    Isn't the land promise to Abraham for all those in Christ? "I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land" (Genesis 17:8); "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:16, 29); "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations" (Romans 4:13-17).

    So won't the land of Israel be divided among both Jews and Gentiles in the millennium? "So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 47:21-23).

    "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee" (Zechariah 2:11).

    .

    I don't believe that the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) is the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), but that the rapture trumpet will sound "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 vials are finished. Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:12, so that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    Note that Paul taught that the Antichrist will be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8), and the Bible doesn’t teach a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ. Revelation doesn’t show Jesus coming or the Antichrist being destroyed at the 7th trumpet, for the Antichrist is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), after the vials (Revelation 16).
     
  19. A Brethren IN CHRIST

    A Brethren IN CHRIST Well-Known Member

    +24
    Christian
    .mixing verse of Church truth with Israel Truth

    1 cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.

    see 3 groups.... seperate to them selves



    I believe all these verse but the difference is the seeds in gen 15:8, 17:8,10 are plural but as in Gen 22:17 thy seed is singular and when you add in Gal 3:16,29 and the church is put into thee Christ [the body] we have this one covenant promise not the other 3 covant promises

    Do you see in 1 thes 4:16 it talks about the trump of God then you add it to 1 cor 15:52 and you harmonize these verse and then lok at your Rev verses and Angels are doing those trumps ....look them up..

    dare yah




     
  20. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    I believe the rapture of living faithful Christians will occur between the seventh trumpet and the first vial. The gap between these are unknown.

    So, I guess I'm a mid-tribber with a half pike, 3.5 twist.
     
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