Pre-destination???

[Markea]

Hi Markea. Though im not a Calvinist, I like to respond to your post.

This reminds me of that ol' sayin. if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it's most likely a duck.. lol

In Ephesians 1 Paul

is listing spiritual blessing by which God has blessed us. These are the selection of the Father (vv. 4-6), the sacriface of the Son (vv. 7-12), and the seal of the Spirit (vv. 13-14). We who are believers are [SIZE=-1]chosen by God [/SIZE]in Christ before the foundation of the world. "In Christ" refers to the fact that there is no blessings without or outside Jesus Christ. Verse 11 tell us that "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of" God.

Emphasis mine.. and so of course I disagree that IN HIM refers only to there being blessings apart from Him.. in verse 4 the context is being CHOSEN.. and there's also the context of FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Now, you tell me.. WHO do we know in the scriptures who was God's chosen, and who was also slain from before the foundation of the world.. ?

The emphasis was placed on US.. rather than on HIM.. and I see this every single time that Calvinists use Eph 1:4..

And what about verse 13?

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation,
and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Paul does not speak of election here at all. He only state that we were sealed with Spirit when we heard the gospel and believed in Christ.

So here it seems that you're missing the other point which I attempted to make.. how that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel.. that's all.. I wasn't speaking of election either.. I was simply showing that we are not CHOSEN from BEFORE the foundation of the world.. in fact.. we were dead and lost in trespasses and sins..

Not true. There is nothing in chapter 2 that is contradictory to doctrine of election. It tell us that we were dead in sin and there is no way to salvastion other than God's mercy (vv. 4-9). Rather this passage confirm the idea of divine election.

Again... we were not chosen from before the foundation of the world.. we too were vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.. that's simply what the scriptures say..

Well, Ephesians 1:4 actually say that WE (who now believe) were chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. And there is many other passages: Acts 13:48; Romans 8:28–30; 1 Thess. 1:4–5; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Peter 1:1; Rev. 13:7–8.

I agree.. but not because of some arbitrary choosing of God.. this one yes, this one not.. it is because of the gospel and our trusting in Christ.

God "saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because
of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages
began." (2 Timothy 1:9)

Again, I completely agree.. the only problem is that many folks read into the context of these verses that this is only afforded to some people and not others..

That's where I disagree.. the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lights every man that comes into the world.. but some will not come to the light.. it's not because they could not come to the light..

Again, look at the parable of the Sower and tell me that the soil upon which the seed falls does not play a role in its growth.. or lack of growth.

 

[vekarppe]

God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Does "us" refer to whole mankind or to those who hear the gospel and believe in Christ?

 

[Iosias]

That's what the word of God says.. because of one man (Adam) condemnation came upon all.. and because of the righteousness of one man (Christ, the last Adam), justification of life came upon all men..

Now, I'd be willing to bet that you agree that all in Adam are condemned, right..? So why not all in Christ justified..? That's the fulness of the context here isn't it.. ? Or does all only mean all for Adam, but it's diminished with respect to Christ..?

Think according to heads. Adam is head of the whole human race who are his body. Christ is head of the elect who are his body. The "all" respects the bodies. So;

The "all" of the head Adam is the whole human race.
The "all" of the head Christ is the whole of the elect.

Hope this makes it simpler

 

[Markea]

Think according to heads. Adam is head of the whole human race who are his body. Christ is head of the elect who are his body. The "all" respects the bodies. So;

The "all" of the head Adam is the whole human race.
The "all" of the head Christ is the whole of the elect.

Hope this makes it simpler

So this is what I said would happen.. ALL means ALL in Adam as far as CONDEMNATION goes.. but God forbid that His Son could freely justify ALL of Adams race.. that's evidently too much for calvinists to accept.

It's UNTO ALL and it is UPON ALL that believe..

But hey.. this horse has been beaten to death for a few centuries now.. and that's not going to change anytime soon...

 

[frumanchu]

That's where I disagree.. the Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lights every man that comes into the world.. but some will not come to the light.. it's not because they could not come to the light..

It's never been about their natural ability to do so, only about their moral ability to do so. IOW, it's not a question of who can, but who will...and more importantly, WHY.

Man in his fallen state will without fail reject God in favor of self because that's what he wants. The problem is in the heart, not the head.

Again, look at the parable of the Sower and tell me that the soil upon which the seed falls does not play a role in its growth.. or lack of growth.

By that reasoning, does not God have sovereignty over the circumstances?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

You know you'd think Arminians and Erasmians would be on the defensive what with zero verses supporting free will and loads supporting God's sovereignty, priority, predestination, grace, and election...

But I guess that's our me-orienting, self-actualization American culture for ya.

 

[vekarppe]

So this is what I said would happen.. ALL means ALL in Adam as far as CONDEMNATION goes.. but God forbid that His Son could freely justify ALL of Adams race.. that's evidently too much for calvinists to accept.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift,
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by
his blood, to be received by faith. Romans 3:23-25

Who are justified by faith? Answer is: all who have sinned. Or how can we say to sinners "Come to Christ and be saved" if there is no sacrifice for all? If this sacrifice is only for elect, how can we invite all sinners to come? Bible makes it clear that anybody who wants to come can come and he will be saved (e.g. Act 2:21; 10:43; 13:39; Ro 10:13).

 

[Markea]

It's never been about their natural ability to do so, only about their moral ability to do so. IOW, it's not a question of who can, but who will...and more importantly, WHY.

Man in his fallen state will without fail reject God in favor of self because that's what he wants. The problem is in the heart, not the head.

Nobody is talking about man's natural ability to do anything.

The gospel of God concerning His Son is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes it... as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God.. even to them that believe on His name.

His words are Spirit and they are Life.. they are living and powerful and effectual in producing a thirty, sixty, or hundredfold increase..

By that reasoning, does not God have sovereignty over the circumstances?

By what reasoning.. that the scriptures clearly speak of the effects of how that good seed penetrates the heart of man..?

People often speak of Sovereignty, and then attribute that as God either allowing a person to believe or not allowing that to happen..

As if that's sovereign.. just about any person can write a program which selects certain things to turn on and others to remain off.. that's basic programming.. and yet people attribute that to God's sovereignty..

I don't get it.. because it is infinitely more glorious and sovereign for God to win back the hearts and minds of those that did go astray (every one his own way).. because of the staggering love and grace of God through the gift of His beloved Son, who gave Himself willingly for our sins even when we were lost and dead in them..

That's sovereign.. and the scriptures testify that even the Angels look on in wonder at this..

But to flick a switch on or to leave it off.. that's far from sovereign..

So I wonder.. did God win your heart of did He push some button to allow you to believe the gospel..?

 

[Markea]

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift,
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by
his blood, to be received by faith. Romans 3:23-25

Who are justified by faith? Answer is: all who have sinned. Or how can we say to sinners "Come to Christ and be saved" if there is no sacrifice for all? If this sacrifice is only for elect, how can we invite all sinners to come? Bible makes it clear that anybody who wants to come can come and he will be saved (e.g. Act 2:21; 10:43; 13:39; Ro 10:13).

It seems to me that you're preaching to the Choir here.. because I do believe that God suffered and died for the sin of the world. For ALL of Adam's fallen race.. and that it truly is UNTO ALL and that it's UPON ALL them that receive it.

We're not capable of limiting anything that God has done through the gift of His Son.. and so if some reject that free gift, it's not that it wasn't offered to them in the first place.. they perish precisely because of the fact that they reject the LOVE of the TRUTH that they might be saved.

 

[vekarppe]

Sorry Markea, I did not meant it to be answer to you.

 

[cygnusx1]

You know you'd think Arminians and Erasmians would be on the defensive what with zero verses supporting free will and loads supporting God's sovereignty, priority, predestination, grace, and election...

But I guess that's our me-orienting, self-actualization American culture for ya.

yes culture certainly conditions and determines thinking and thinking certainly conditions and determines wills

 

[BBAS 64]

I didn't say that you did either.. I simply placed the emphasis on being chosen IN Christ, instead of us.



If you'd like to play Mr English lesson, that's fine.. it's not a difficult lesson though.. your argument is that WE are chosen from the foundation of the world.. Is that correct..?

I'm simply showing you that Christ is chosen from the foundation of the world, and that we are chosen IN HIM after trusting in Him, after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation..

Pretty simple difference.. you're trying to make it out to be an English lesson..

Good Day, Markea

Not so much an English lesson, more a reading lesson.


Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
He (God, subject "doer")
chose (verb)
us (object of verb)
in him ( prep. of location)
Before (prep. of time)
foundation of the world ( used to denote time point for pre-stated prep)

You get the point , so yes you are correct.

BTW there is no scripture that reads to us being in him, (after) X,Y,Z condition.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Markea]

Good Day, Markea

Not so much an English lesson, more a reading lesson.

Well, then thanks for the reading lesson Bill. I mentioned that the only difference in our initial reading was that you placed the emboldened EMPHASIS on US, and I placed it on HIM..

That's it. Although again, thanks for explaining how to read.

BTW there is no scripture that reads to us being in him, (after) X,Y,Z condition.

In Him,

Bill

So, are you saying that YOU were IN HIM while you were DEAD and lost in trespasses and in sins.. ?

I'm not sure what your point is here.. although perhaps you can enlighten us as to how you READ this..

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

Clearly it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER we heard the gospel of truth, that it was THEN that God sealed us with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2 makes it clear that in times past (prior to that) we walked according to the course of this world, and were by nature children of wrath, even as others..

So if you're suggesting that you were IN CHRIST then, then that's a new one for me.. although it's not surprising.. it often amazes me what folks write on these boards from time to time.. :o

 

[LoG]

yes culture certainly conditions and determines thinking and thinking certainly conditions and determines wills

Funny how the 5 points of Calvinism and Arminianism were hammered out less than 100 km from each other by dutchmen.

 

[cygnusx1]

Well, then thanks for the reading lesson Bill. I mentioned that the only difference in our initial reading was that you placed the emboldened EMPHASIS on US, and I placed it on HIM..

That's it. Although again, thanks for explaining how to read.



So, are you saying that YOU were IN HIM while you were DEAD and lost in trespasses and in sins.. ?

I'm not sure what your point is here.. although perhaps you can enlighten us as to how you READ this..

[bible]Ephesians 1:13-14[/bible]

Clearly it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER we heard the gospel of truth, that it was THEN that God sealed us with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2 makes it clear that in times past (prior to that) we walked according to the course of this world, and were by nature children of wrath, even as others..

So if you're suggesting that you were IN CHRIST then, then that's a new one for me.. although it's not surprising.. it often amazes me what folks write on these boards from time to time.. :o

when did Eve belong in unity with Adam , before or after she was conscious of it ?

 

[Markea]

when did Eve belong in unity with Adam , before or after she was conscious of it ?

I think that it's fairly basic principle of the gospel that sin has separated humanity from God..

So I'll ask you the same question..

Are you going to suggest that YOU were IN CHRIST while you were DEAD and lost in trespasses and in sins.. or was it after you trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel and then believing.. ?

 

[vekarppe]

Markea , can you please anser my question:

Does "us", in Ephesian 1:4, refer to whole mankind or to those who hear the gospel and believe in Christ?

 

[Markea]

Markea , can you please anser my question:

Does "us", in Ephesian 1:4, refer to whole mankind or to those who hear the gospel and believe in Christ?

I would say that it's speaking of those who are actually IN CHRIST.. not everybody..

Now, the free gift is UNTO all although it is only UPON ALL those that receive it.

When Paul wrote Ephesians 1:4.. there were multitudes who were not yet in Christ.. people like you and me.. who were not even born yet..

 

[vekarppe]

I would say that it's speaking of those who are actually IN CHRIST.. not everybody..

[SIZE=-1]I think same way. So Paul is saying that we, the believers, are chosen by God [/SIZE]in Christ before the foundation of the world. Right?

 

[Markea]

[SIZE=-1]I think same way. So Paul is saying that we, the believers, are chosen by God [/SIZE]in Christ before the foundation of the world. Right?

Yes, although not the way you're thinking.. I think..

It doesn't mean that WE were chosen from the foundation of the world..(Ephesians itself refutes that idea).. it means that Christ was chosen from the foundation of the world (as He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world), and that any person who places their trust in Christ, is adopted into God's family.. THAT was decided from the foundation of the world. We are chosen IN HIM.. ie, because of Him.. because we trusted in HIM.

That's what predestination is.. God determining a place for all who would trust in His Son, from before the foundation of the world.. pre-destination... it's a simple word really.. unfortunately, many place the emphasis on individuals rather than on God.

This doesn't mean that God is wondering who will trust in His Son, He knows the end from the beginning..