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Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by PanDeVida, Aug 7, 2017.

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  1. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Reported for personal attacks...again.
     
  2. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    I don't trusty your quotes because they are incomplete, out of context, and you give obscure sources that can't be found.

    see above.

    Do I have to repost what you intentionally left out?

    The author of your infallible quote is J. H. Ignaz von Döllinger, the nineteenth-century historian who defected from the Church after the promulgation of the dogma of papal infallibility. He is a liar, not a prominent theologian you wish he was.

    You are another angry anti-Catholic straining to use theologians as weapons against the Church.


    [/QUOTE]
     
  3. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    None of that changes the fact that you lied and made up a story soley to attack the Catholic Church (and you remember exactly what I am talking about).

    As for reporting me, have at it. I could use a nice break from this site for a while. You can continue to slander, lie and make back-handed comments if and when I am suspended, but there will eventually be another person to call you out on your falsehoods.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  4. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    The service I attended was a Roman Catholic wedding where the main reading was Matthew 7:21, 23-27. Verse 22 was removed because the ensuing homily made a specific case for works based salvation. Had you asked, instead of attacking and accusing, I would have been happy to explain that.

    And yes, I will continue to report your personal attacks. This is a Christian web site, and that behavior should have no place here.
     
  5. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I bet. You remember all of a sudden, but you wouldn't give us the verses then. I wonder why?

    And you can spare us with the babe in the woods routine. You routinely insult and personally attack members of this forum. You do it in a back handed, smug, passive aggressive way, all the while claiming to be Christian. But I see through you. And so does God.

    When I get angy and insult someone I know I am wrong. You insult people left and right, never see the log in your own eye, and then go around trying to school others on Christian virtue. That is the difference between us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  6. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    The couple getting married pick the readings from a list.
    The reading is inappropriate for a wedding; it would never have been an option.
    The CC has never taught a works based salvation. She teaches works and faith are organically fused, like the Bible says. Good works must start with the grace of Christ or it's worthless, and maybe you can explain why this gives Protestants fits.


    [​IMG]

    "To whom much is given, much is required."
    J.F. Kennedy
     
  7. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Have you stopped beating your wife yet? It is up to you to prove that I am posting propaganda, versus failing that, resorting to the Catholic Answers favorite recourse of dismissing all those who expose its sophistry as being anti-Catholic bigots.
    All of which go together, as subsequent responses show, and are collectively contrary to PTCBIH.
    What kind of copy and paste apologetic is that? Do you really think the record of spiritual declension and accretion of traditions of men is the standard for what the NT church believed, versus what is manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive record of it? In other words, your attack one a a false man made tradition is a false man made tradition.
    You mean over 2,000 words that fail to provide even one example of any believers praying to anyone else in heaven but God, or that they were addressed, or any instruction to do so, somehow proves prayer to created beings in Heaven is not entirely absent from Scripture?

    Instead such utter failure to provide what Catholics could only wish was recorded despite over 200 prayers in Scripture is itself an argument against it being what the NT church believed and practiced.

    What Catholics must resort to is erroneous extrapolation after extrapolation, insisting that a common Catholic practice must be what believers engaged in, despite unable to produce any examples of PTCMIH amidst over 200 prayers to Heaven.
    Although the weight of Scriptural warrant is not the basis for the veracity of Catholic doctrine, and what "The Catholic Church" says is to be the supreme law,
    I never said it was mandatory, though assent to the doctrine of it is, but that what "The Catholic Church" says is to be the supreme law, and thus calling me "vicious" while engaging in miscontruance of what I said means your charge falls upon your own head.

    Really, you see "synagogue of the Jews" who and conclude these must be Greek Pharisees who and "searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. (Acts 17:11,12) Regardless, this postulation does not help your purpose:
    Which is so much propaganda, as it presumes that the LXX of the 1st century contained the Deuteros, which is not evidenced by any mss of that era, and which scholarly opinion opposes nor does Paul ever refer to references to any of the Deuteros as Scripture, or "it is written," while even Catholic sources admit that the Jewish canon (the Palestinian canon held by the Pharisees) did not contain the Deuteros. As the Catholic Encyclopedia affirms, “the protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” ( The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)
    And which was a freedom Catholics such as Jerome had for most of Rome's history.
    Are you serious? The Scriptural record of the NT church shows what parts of Jewish tradition were followed, and actually warns against giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men (Titus 1:14) which is contrary to what Paul etc. taught, which never examples or teaches PTCBIH.
    But only God is shown able to hear all prayer and is the only one appealed to as able to do so, and "only knowest the hearts of all the children of men," (1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:30; Acts 1:24) and from what I recall any two-way communication btwn created beings required both to somehow be visibly in the same place, versus believers praying "hear Thou from Heaven" 2 Chronicles 6:21,23,25,27,30,33,35,39).
    That is a mere argument by mere assertion in lieu of any substantiation against the manifest boundary btwn the two realms.

    rather than this offering of prayers being some continuous postal service, they are offered in memorial before the judgments of the last days (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15)
    .
    What? The answers were right in front of you, but like a car thief who cannot find a police station, you cannot see that there is nothing said of praying to these beings, nor that they were some continuous postal service interceding for souls, but that they are offered in memorial before the judgments of the last days
    "A rather straightforward deduction hat they heard the initial prayers? And just where is that? I did not deny they may have understood the nature of the prayers, but there is nothing in your proof texts that they heard them, while that is not the main issue, as that they were not prayed to is.
    In Revelation 8:3-4 incense9s offered with the prayers, while in Rv. 5:8 the golden vials full of odours are the prayers of saints.
    No doubt "it seems clear to" you as a Catholic who can only wish the texts say what you need them to, but the fact that angels are extremely intelligent beings (the issue is information, not IQ) who know when a sinner repents (which can be since their names are then written in the Lamb's book of life), and that John prophetically saw angels offering up prayers of the saints precipitating judgment - which is actually consistent with God remembering the cry of the humble when he maketh inquisition for blood, (Psalms 9:12) - simply does not mean they continuously know the express contents of believers prayers let alone are involved as constant intercessors. And it certainly does not teach that they were objects of prayer for believers.
    That they continuously know the express contents of believers prayers is dubious, while arguing for this based upon what God can do is specious.
    This is not likely referring to the view of those in Heaven, but the view of them by believers who were just presented with them in the previous chapter. "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us." (Hebrews 12:1)

    "Wherefore seeing" refers to the testimonies past believers that were just presented, the metaphorical "great cloud of witnesses" or martyrs (martus) of great witnesses to faith.

    But again, even if they are viewing us this simply is not the same as them praying for us, much less being objects of prayer, which is nowhere seen. It is sad that Catholics must resort to such extrapolation.
    What? The extrapolation that Catholics must resort to is bad enough, but forcing Scripture to say what they can only wish it did is even worse. Martyrs asking God "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth" is not praying for those on the earth, but is simply a question as to when God will execute justice. It may be that this judgment could be beneficial to the few protected believers that remain on earth, but judging and avenging the blood of those already martyred is the only manifest motive.
    Why do you even both with this? It only confirms what I said about only God being able to (constantly) hear prayer from Heaven and respond to it, and being the only one in Heaven believers pray to, versus two-way communication btwn created beings evidently requiring both to somehow be visibly in the same place, versus believers praying "hear Thou from Heaven"
    All of which are pitiful substitutes for any real examples of any believers praying to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord, despite over 200 prayers in Scripture and despite there always being plenty of created being in Heaven to pray to, and despite prayer to created beings being a most basic common practice by Catholics.
    Which simply does not translate into them doing so in Heaven, or having the uniquely Divine power to constantly hear prayers in Heaven, any more than mental prayers while on earth, much less being the objects of prayer.
    Likewise as above.
    More wanton propaganda invoked to support propaganda. Nowhere is this IM exception to the norm testifies to by God in Scripture, nor that the holy virtuous Spirit-filled Mary of Scripture had the most virtuous character (or exercised the most love), or was ever prayed to, and that her prayers in response to ours must have more power and effect than that of any other creature.
    Speculation, which avails nothing unless they can be shown to be heavenly objects of prayer.
    More wanton propaganda invoked to support propaganda.
    You invoked this failure already.
    Another attempt to invoke Genesis 48:16, taking it out of context,
    Show me where I said this attempt was by any official Catholic document, or from someone you would call a reputable Catholic apologists, or stop making things up. But you can tell those Catholic apologists on this form who has taken these verses out of context that they are not reputable Catholic apologists.

    Another and egregious example is that of using such as texts "Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts" (Psalms 148:2) to support praying to angels. However, this also ignores context for to be consistent, contextually the Catholic must also affirm praying to created elements is also encouraged:
    This is sheer nonsense. Praying to created elements is just another stupid anti-Catholic myth invented by bible cults trying to undermine the historic Church to justify their late arrival.
    That I said praying to created elements is something Catholics do is just another example of misapprehension or wilful misrepresentation of what I said. Which was that to be consistent with using such texts as "Praise ye him, all his angels" to support praying to them, the must also affirm praying to created elements is also encouraged, as in "Praise ye him, sun and moon.."
    Really? Then you have not debated Caths for years as i have, and i expect to see that recourse here.

    As well as simply asserting Catholic propaganda as if that provided the evidence they so desperately need.
    Certainly some Truths were passed on orally, and SS preachers can do so today, under the premise that such are Scriptural, as that of men such as the apostles were. However, directly men such as the apostle could speak as wholly inspired of God, and also provide new revelation, neither of which a SS preacher or Roman popes claim to do.

    Moreover, the veracity of Scripture is not shown subject to testing by oral tradition, but the veracity of even apostolic preaching was subject to testing by the inspired written word of God, which is God's chosen means of preservation, and as written, became the manifest standard for obedience and testing Truth claims.

    However, Rome effectively presumes to be the supreme authority (sola Roma), with assurance of Truth for a faithful RC resting upon the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults).

    For Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

    Thus your attempted defense has been a manifest failure, for faced the Spirit of God not providing actual examples of PTCBIH while providing approx. 200 prayers, and yet recording that of such by pagans, and only instructing and exampling prayer to God in Heaven, you invoke the postscriptural history of Catholic accretion of traditions of men as if that was the inspired standard of what the NT church believed and practiced, but the Spirit of God failed to actually record it.

    Then you posted a link which was supposed to show that PTCBIH is "absent from the entire body of inspired Scripture," yet utterly fails to show one actual example.

    Next you misrepresented what I said re prayers to saints and church teaching being the supreme law, then tried to make the noble Bereans into Pharisees who held the Deuterocanon to be Scripture, which cannot be established, while that we should follow Jewish tradition re PTCBIH when NT record does not show the church did is absurd.

    Next you egregiously tried to extrapolate extremely intelligent angels offering up prayers in Heaven as prophetically seen by John before the climatic judgments of Revelation as meaning they hear prayers and are now constantly involved as intercessors, and as if this somehow supports praying to them, which it simply does not.

    You also tried to negate the manner of division btwn the Heavenly and earthly realms which is manifest in any two-way communication btwn created beings evidently being required both to somehow be visibly in the same place, versus believers praying "hear Thou from Heaven," by showing example of what I said. Thanks.

    Then you listed your entire rationale for asking saints to pray to God for us, all of which is more wanton extrapolation in lieu of any examples amidst over 200 prayers be believers, or any instruction to address some created beings in prayer to Heaven, and what is needed but you can only wish was there.

    We are not dealing with whether pets will be in Heaven, or the existence of a hidden planet, but a most basic common spiritual practice and a God which is faithful to manifestly show such in His inspired writings. The desperate, even inventive extrapolation Catholics must resort to in seeking to provide support for what really is a tradition of men is itself an argument against it.

    Next you argue as if presented a Catholic apologetic as being from an official Catholic document, or from "a reputable Catholic apologist," while in reality Catholic apologists do present the argument i cited, and do take it out of context.

    Then you argue as if I said that praying to created elements is a Cath practice, when instead i was showing the consequences of their logic.

    Finally, as you are simply unable from inspired Scripture to show that PTCBIH was something the NT church believed and practiced, then it is no surprise that in the end you invoke Catholic oral tradition, that carte blanch means of providing what Scripture will not.

    Which even extends into Rome making belief in an event binding over 1700 years after it allegedly occurred, and which was so lacking in testimony from tradition that Roman scholars were collectively opposed to it being apostolic doctrine.

    But the premise of Rome is not that or the apostles, and simply reveals the false foundation of Rome in teaching for doctrines the traditions of men.
     
  8. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I hate to tell you, but not only was that the main reading, but the homily afterward was very specific about doing good works in order to get into heaven. And we agree; it was inappropriate...wedding or otherwise.

    Assuming the couple chose the reading, I'm guessing (and this is only a guess) they did so because verses 24-27 talk about building a house on rock versus sand. The couple are very devout Christians and have committed to make God the foundation of their marriage and family. In that context, it's actually a great reading for a wedding. Where it went sideways was leaving out verse 22 and then diverting the homily into a call for doing good works to earn salvation.

    But then again, this has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. My apologies for the derailment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  9. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not so. If I had addressed the entire post, the criticism would have been exactly the same.

    I only addressed the part that was suspect. I saw no need to mention the part that no one disagrees with. However, there was nothing in the balance of the post that corrected that first sentence.Your post taken in it's entirety is still exactly as I described it.
    Said in a totally different way, because you seemingly do not understand the point.
    If Christ is God-man, then Mary is Theotokos (the God bearer).
    Likewise, If Mary is not Theotokos, then Christ is not God-man.
    Calling Mary Theotokos is not about who Mary is, it is about who Christ is.
     
  10. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    If you really wanted to know what I was actually saying you would have needed to read and address my post in it's entirety. Taking the first sentence alone and fixating on it ignored the entire point. (And led you to suggest I was quoting verbatim, well known heresy) No small accusation by the way.

    Here is what I actually said:
    (Notice, you didn't even quote a complete sentence, just the first part of one)


    Next time, please address what I actually said, in its entirety, or feel free to ask questions if you still don't understand what I'm saying.

    God bless.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    A Catholic Bible commentary compiled by the late Rev. Fr. George Leo Haydock, following the Douay-Rheims Bible.*


    Is this official Roman Catholic teachings?
     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    No there is actually a definition. I've provided it several times in these types of threads.

    Here it is again:

    Westminster Confession of Faith
     
  13. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Acts 9:32
    And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

    Acts 9:41
    And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

    Acts 26:10
    Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

    Romans 12:13
    Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

    Romans 15:25
    But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

    Romans 15:26
    For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

    Romans 16:15
    Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

    1 Corinthians 16:1
    Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

    1 Corinthians 16:15
    I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

    2 Corinthians 1:1
    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

    2 Corinthians 8:4
    Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

    2 Corinthians 9:1
    For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

    2 Corinthians 9:12
    For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

    2 Corinthians 13:13
    All the saints salute you.

    Ephesians 1:1
    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

    Try again.
     
  14. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    What have any of those to do with the bowls of incense?
     
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  15. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Can you be less specific?
     
  16. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    "Saints" in the NT is used to refer to living people on Earth.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    What would be better is if you can find a verse that actually shows us where believers pray to dead saints is actually at. I do not see this in the New Testament. How about the pagan fish hats? I do not see that one either. I mean, are you not curious? Try doing a Google image search using the keywords:

    "pagan fish hats in babylon and RCC."

    Then do one for sunworship and the RCC.

    Pretty scary stuff.

    ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  18. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    I agree, but even the poster you are responding to stated, "It says the bowls of incense are the prayers of the saints, not that they are the prayers of believers on earth made to the saints."

    What did I miss? Or what did he miss here?
     
  19. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    It is rather interesting, many will likely just dismiss it as "conspiracy theory" however.
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Ok, you have no answer.

    Of course not. If you actually show me your reasoning and logic for the specific passage I would appreciate it. You used every other passage to explain this one but did not address the actual passage.

    I believe that is your claim not mine.

    Not according to Ratzinger, which I showed by actually quoting him.

    Sure we can have a sola scriptura discussion. Please explain to me your understanding of it?

    Jesus and the apostles employed sola scriptura often.


    Interesting. Your assertion was Jesus referred to His family as examples of doing God's will. However I showed you in the text He does not refer to them but the people around Him. No matter how much your source tried to explain this away it cannot refute what is clearly written.

    Actually you should examine that a bit more. It is you who is insisting brother does not mean brother when it refers to Jesus' brothers but elsewhere it does. On the other hand I'm pointing brother means brother.

    Just as "until" means until unless until refers to Mary and Joseph.
     
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