Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

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Goatee

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Right. That is a gross misrepresentation of what "Sola Scriptura" is and you know it.

No, it's not. You only believe what is in the Bible. You see no revelation outside of the Bible. You only see truths from scripture alone. CATHOLICS believe in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition of which you refute.
 
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Goatee

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I don't care what you call it. I quoted Scripture. You selected the very first sentence of my post and discarded the rest. Highly dishonest.

Here, I'll help you out:


Now, kindly address what I wrote in its entirety before carelessly throwing around labels.

Mary is the Mother of both a human and a divine person.
 
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amariselle

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No, it's not. You only believe what is in the Bible. You see no revelation outside of the Bible. You only see truths from scripture alone. CATHOLICS believe in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition of which you refute.

You specifically said:

You are a Sola Scripture only believer. Nothing outside the Bible is real to you.

"Nothing outside the Bible" is real to me?

Is my husband "real" to me? Are my parents "real" to me? My siblings? My friends?

Trees? Flowers? My dog? My dove? The house I live in? The food I eat? The bed I sleep in?

Your comment was quite the exaggeration, and you know it.
 
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Goatee

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You specifically said:



"Nothing outside the Bible" is real to me?

Is my husband "real" to me? Are my parents "real" to me? My siblings? My friends?

Trees? Flowers? My dog? My dove? The house I live in? The food I eat? The bed I sleep in?

Your comment was quite the exaggeration, and you know it.

No, as you know what I meant buddy
 
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FenderTL5

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I don't care what you call it. I quoted Scripture. You selected the very first sentence of my post and discarded the rest. Highly dishonest.

Now, kindly address what I wrote in its entirety before carelessly throwing around labels.
There was nothing careless nor dishonest in my post. Your point, the part quoted, was almost verbatim an ancient heresy. I have no idea whether that is what you really believe or not. Maybe in your anti-Catholic rhetoric you made a mistake, I don't know. However the fact remains that Jesus Christ was 100% God and 100% man. What you posted denies the Incarnation. Whether you actually meant it or not is a different issue and you should care.

Here's the continuation of the passage you started quoting: the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

or from the Creed
I believe.. in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten,
Begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God,
Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven,
And was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man..
 
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Fireinfolding

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Mary still gave birth to both a human and divine person!

The Word was made flesh (as by her) and he is to be called the Son of God

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I don't see anyone stating the Word wasn't made flesh or that he is not the Son of God
 
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redleghunter

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One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession.
Well of course it is speculation to say the souls of the departed faithful can or cannot hear our prayers.

Do our souls receive an omniscient or supercharged ability to hear millions of prayers once we depart these bodies? A serious question. Is St. Francis getting any rest even though the priest at his funeral said "eternal rest grant unto him oh Lord"?

Or should we consider that when we are absent from these bodies and present with the Lord (awaiting the resurrection) that the affairs of this world no longer concern us and we are in bliss being in the Presence of Jesus Christ? Frankly, I don't want to hear the babblings of people here on this rock we call Earth when compared to the Glory of being in Gods' Presence. That would be His Real Presence indeed.

However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

Fair enough, let's look at the text:

Revelation 5: NABRE (USCCB Bible)

6 Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders a Lamb that seemed to have been slain. He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the [seven] spirits of God sent out into the whole world. 7He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. 8When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

There is a problem with your quoted statement above "John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

The prayers of the saints [holy ones as in the USCCB Bible] are being held by the 24 elders. These elders are not the saints as you try to indicate. Meaning these are not their own prayers. We have elders distinctly mentioned and gold bowls filled with incense with are the prayers of the 'holy ones' (aka saints).

So are the saints offering their own prayers as you indicate in the brown italicized above?
Or are you stating the prayers of the saints are our (puny little humans) prayers and the elders are the canonized saints of Catholicism?

Therefore, please answer the following to properly exegete the verses:

Who are the 24 elders in the passage?
Who are referenced to as 'saints' or 'holy ones?'
What do the golden bowls signify?
What do the harps represent?

Given you have exhibited an enthusiasm that the One Holy and Apostolic Church is the source of truth, let's see how the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops interprets these verses.

From: scripture

5:114] The seer now describes a papyrus roll in God’s right hand (Rev 5:1) with seven seals indicating the importance of the message. A mighty angel asks who is worthy to open the scroll, i.e., who can accomplish God’s salvific plan (Rev 5:2). There is despair at first when no one in creation can do it (Rev 5:34). But the seer is comforted by an elder who tells him that Christ, called the lion of the tribe of Judah, has won the right to open it (Rev 5:5). Christ then appears as a Lamb, coming to receive the scroll from God (Rev 5:67), for which he is acclaimed as at a coronation (Rev 5:810). This is followed by a doxology of the angels (Rev 5:1112) and then finally by the heavenly church united with all of creation (Rev 5:1314).

* [5:1] A scroll: a papyrus roll possibly containing a list of afflictions for sinners (cf. Ez 2:910) or God’s plan for the world. Sealed with seven seals: it is totally hidden from all but God. Only the Lamb (Rev 5:79) has the right to carry out the divine plan.

* [5:5] The lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David: these are the messianic titles applied to Christ to symbolize his victory; cf. Rev 22:16; Gn 49:9; Is 11:1, 10; Mt 1:1.

* [5:6] Christ is the Paschal Lamb without blemish, whose blood saved the new Israel from sin and death; cf. Ex 12; Is 53:7; Jn 1:29, 36; Acts 8:32; 1 Pt 1:1819. This is the main title for Christ in Revelation, used twenty-eight times. Seven horns and seven eyes: Christ has the fullness (see note on Rev 1:4) of power (horns) and knowledge (eyes); cf. Zec 4:7. [Seven] spirits: as in Rev 1:4; 3:1; 4:5.

Absolutely nothing is mentioned about the golden bowls, and prayers of the 'saints.' Nothing. In fact the USCCB Bible totally avoids verse 8.
Given I have heard your interpretation before, I will assume there is some official RC interpretation the USCCB Bible left out. Please provide where you received the interpretation of verse 8 from. The Vatican website? Your Local Ordinary? Your own personal interpretation? RCIA booklet? Staples? Hahn? Mother Angelica?

But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

As mentioned above, the 24 elders are not identified as 'saints.' I will need to see the official Roman Catholic interpretation of this. If not, you are just another dude exercising private interpretations.
 
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amariselle

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There was nothing careless nor dishonest in my post.

Indeed there most certainly was. To quote the first sentence and then label me a "heretic" is, quite, frankly not only careless and dishonest, but quite offensive. (Especially since, had you bothered to include the rest, you would have realized I did not say what you accused me of)

Your point, the part quoted, was almost verbatim an ancient heresy.

Well, I guess that's what happens when you decided to rip things out of context. Maybe next time you'll address my post in it's entirety.

What you did is no different than cutting someone off mid-sentence and then accusing them of saying something when you didn't even let them finish. Worse actually, because I did share my entire thought on the matter (with Scripture) but you chose to ignore all that in favour of zeroing in on some apparent pet issue you have.


I have no idea whether that is what you really believe or not.

Well, maybe you would know what I believe if you had read or addressed my entire post. If it still wasn't clear, you could have asked me to explain what I meant. Just a thought.

Maybe in your anti-Catholic rhetoric you made a mistake, I don't know.

My "anti-Catholic rhetoric"?

However the fact remains that Jesus Christ was 100% God and 100% man.

When did I even once say He isn't?

What you posted denies the Incarnation. Whether you actually meant it or not is a different issue and you should care.

Further proof that you didn't actually read my entire post. You sure latched on to that first sentence. Clearly nothing mattered to you beyond that.

Go back and read my entire post again. You'll see that I did not once deny the Incarnation.

Here's the continuation of the passage you started quoting: the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
or from the Creed

I believe.. in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten,
Begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God,
Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven,
And was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man..

Yep. Never denied any of that. Nor was that the point of my post. Perhaps you should have take the time to read what I wrote in its entirety.
 
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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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I will say this one more time, and then I am finished. I for one am done with the intellectual dishonesty going on here.

I shared those verses without a single added comment, yet you repeatedly tell me I have added my own interpretation. I did not.

If you don't want to address what those verses say, that is fine. Your choice. But you need to stop claiming I added my own "interpretation", when I shared only those verses and no personal opinions or thoughts on them whatsoever.

Honestly, I think you know exactly what those verses say, and you simply would rather not go there. Perhaps it's a little too inconvenient.

Your choice.

I'm done going around in endless circles.

God bless.
Frankly Roman Catholics should not be engaging in these discussions on church doctrine without permission from their Local Ordinary.

We should be getting only information with the proper nihil obstat and imprimatur.
 
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amariselle

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Frankly Roman Catholics should not be engaging in these discussions on church doctrine without permission from their Local Ordinary.

We should be getting only information with the proper nihil obstat and imprimatur.

Makes sense. All part of being under the Magisterium after all.
 
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FenderTL5

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..label me a "heretic"
Not once have I called you a heretic. Nor will I, ever.
..I guess that's what happens when you decided to rip things out of context..
..My "anti-Catholic rhetoric"?
You quoted Goatee who said :
"Mary is truly the Mother of the risen Lord."
You then replied, "She is the mother of Christ the man, (that is, His humanity/physical body), not of Christ as God. Jesus, as God, existed "in the beginning" and is the Creator of all things, as Scripture plainly states."

Go back and read my entire post again. You'll see that I did not once deny the Incarnation.
I've read your post several times, You said, "She is the mother of Christ the man, ..not of Christ as God."
It still reads the same. God became man, born of a virgin - that is the Incarnation.
 
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Fireinfolding

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God become a man born of a virgin cannot be addressed as Christ the man?

Paul didn't have a problem with this

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
 
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amariselle

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Not once have I called you a heretic. Nor will I, ever.

Did you, or did you not write that my post was almost a verbatim quote of "ancient heresy"?

Pretty close to calling me a heretic if you ask me. But that's fine, according to official Catholic doctrine I am "anathema", so I guess it might be true.

You quoted Goatee who said :
"Mary is truly the Mother of the risen Lord."
You then replied, "She is the mother of Christ the man, (that is, His humanity/physical body), not of Christ as God. Jesus, as God, existed "in the beginning" and is the Creator of all things, as Scripture plainly states."

I've read your post several times, You said, "She is the mother of Christ the man, ..not of Christ as God."
It still reads the same. God became man, born of a virgin - that is the Incarnation.

Yep, I never once said Jesus was not fully God and fully man. My point is this, as God, Jesus pre-existed Mary, as the Bible clearly says, in the Scripture I quoted, which you ignored.
 
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