Praying is now illegal

[Whyayeman]

I very much doubt that the court will dismiss this. She has not been charged with silent prayer. Even the West Midland police are not that stupid. Here is my prediction.

She will be found to have breached the Public Space Protection Order by some specific action, which need not be a crime in itself. If the woman had already spoken out to some specific person who had earlier complained that would be enough for the police action. (I do not trust the video to be an objective piece of reporting.) There will be no mention of prayer and he will not speak during the proceedings.

She will be given a conditional discharge and warned to keep away from that part of Kings Norton. It is not a very good piece of law; I think Breach of the Peace would adequately cover it.

The clinic she was picketing will continue its lawful activities.

 

[FenderTL5]

I very much doubt that the court will dismiss this. She has not been charged with silent prayer. Even the West Midland police are not that stupid. Here is my prediction.

She will be found to have breached the Public Space Protection Order by some specific action, which need not be a crime in itself. If the woman had already spoken out to some specific person who had earlier complained that would be enough for the police action. (I do not trust the video to be an objective piece of reporting.) There will be no mention of prayer and he will not speak during the proceedings.

She will be given a conditional discharge and warned to keep away from that part of Kings Norton. It is not a very good piece of law; I think Breach of the Peace would adequately cover it.

The clinic she was picketing will continue its lawful activities.

I don't know enough about British law to predict the outcome. However, I think your assessment sounds probable. I tend to think the video posted in the OP has twp problematic portions for her;
After being cautioned of her rights, she was first asked, "What are you here for today?" Her response was "physically, I'm just standing here."
Then came the "why" question:
"why here of all places, I know you don't live nearby." She replied, "this is an abortion center (while nodding toward the facility)" the officer then says, "so that's why you're standing here?" and she nods in agreement..

After being asked if it's part of a protest (no) followed by if she's praying;
The officer then asks, "..will you voluntarily come with us to the police station to answer questions about today and the other days where there are allegations you've broken the PSPO.."
"If I've got a choice then no."
Afterwhich she is placed under arrest.

The two problem areas; she made it clear the "why" she was there was because of the abortion center. It could also be argued she was arrested for not being willing to leave and answer questions voluntarily. Or another way, had she left voluntarily it is possible there would not have been an arrest at all.

 

[Whyayeman]

The two problem areas; she made it clear the "why" she was there was because of the abortion center. It could also be argued she was arrested for not being willing to leave and answer questions voluntarily. Or another way, had she left voluntarily it is possible there would not have been an arrest at all.

I think you have got this about right. She needn't have been arrested; she could have gone voluntarily to the local nick. It seems clear that she wanted to be arrested rather than give up. There is nothing unusual about that; any demonstrator would do the same.

This PSPO only applies to a few streets and is made possible by a new statute designed for disrupting peaceful protest and giving powers of arrest to the police against people who have not actually broken any law. (She is not accused of any breach of the law - just a breach of the PSPO. If you asked anybody on the street in Birmingham about such an order you would be hard pressed to get an answer. I had to look it up.)

 

[stevevw]

Sadly, in the UK the police believe that praying silently in your head constitutes a breach to PSPO laws to protest or indicate approval or disapproval.

It's either the biggest mistake West Midlands Police have made in years else a sign of prosecution to come.

The question is whether the Christian community is going to do anything about it? Will you?

WATCH: NEW footage of police arresting woman for silently praying

Birmingham charity volunteer arrested and searched – including through her hair – after silently praying in a censorship zone

adf.uk

This seems to breach Human Rights
Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

In saying that Christ said about prayer
Matthew 6:5
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.…

So it seems that prayer is more effective when we pray in private and are unseen. I think this is true because prayer is between yourself and God and therefore doesn't need public attention. In some ways the women was making a protest and not just praying by making such a public stand which turns praying into something else.

I think this law could set a precedent. What about green protesters standing outside Oil companies, Indigenous protesters protesting outside parliament house or those who want to protest against corporatization by standing outside big companies or protesting against concerns about the health effects of fast food protesting outside MacDonald's etc..

 

[Darren Court]

This seems to breach Human Rights
Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

In saying that Christ said about prayer
Matthew 6:5
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.…

So it seems that prayer is more effective when we pray in private and are unseen. I think this is true because prayer is between yourself and God and therefore doesn't need public attention. In some ways the women was making a protest and not just praying by making such a public stand which turns praying into something else.

I think this law could set a precedent. What about green protesters standing outside Oil companies, Indigenous protesters protesting outside parliament house or those who want to protest against corporatization by standing outside big companies or protesting against concerns about the health effects of fast food protesting outside MacDonald's etc..

The actual reality of this case is going to come down to simple question...
.
"Could her praying silently on the secret be seen as an indication of her objection or support for the abortion clinic?"
.
If the answer is yes, then she technically is not guilty of prayer as guilty of breaching the PSPO's prohibition to show objection or support through any means.
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If all she was doing was praying silently in her head, I can't image how a court would find her guilty of breaching the PSPO. The burden of proof is on the prosecution to provide evidence that her praying silently, that apparently nobody saw, was this breach. From what we know I think they're going to look stupid, and I can very well see the CPO dropping the case before they get to court... but leaving it until the last minute in order to keep her anxious as long as possible so she won't do it again.
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As for Mt 6:5, I've seen many Christian's quote this verse to infer this lady was wrong.... and that she was in some way making a protest. I'm saddened by such responses. The reality was that the clinic was closed and there was nobody around to protest to and so the idea that she was somehow making a protest isn't supported by the facts, unless one believes she was involved in getting the police there to make it public. The actual film footage shows she is nervous, cold and clearly uncomfortable, not conducive to someone deliberately setting up the protest.
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As for the moral of Mt 6:5, it's not about always praying in your closet privately. That is to miss the point and would completely negate the idea of ever praying together that the bible encourages. The point is to not pray for out loud to garner attention for yourself and your fancy prayers. Praying out loud is fine as is praying out loud in public, but one's purpose cannot be like that of the hypocrites.

• On the battlefield at war with the Philistines, Samuel cried out to the Lord to help the children of Israel (1Samuel 7:7-9).
• Nehemiah prayed in the palace of the king while in the king's presence "" (Nehemiah 2:4-5).
• From a deep pit or dungeon the writer of Lamentations called on the name of the LORD (Lamentations 3:55-57).
• Jonah prayed from the fish's belly (Jonah 2:1).
• Gethsemane, believed to be a garden or olive grove, was a place of prayer for Jesus (Matthew 26:36).
• Jesus withdrew into the wilderness to pray(Luke 5:16).
• Jesus went out to a mountain to spend the night in prayer. On another occasion he took Peter, John, and James, up on a mountain to pray. (Luke 6:12, 9:28).
• Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector(Luke 18:10).
• The thief on the cross prayed to Jesus. Jesus also prayed on the cross (Luke 23:34,42).
• In an upper room, the disciples were praying. This was on the day of Pentecost after Jesus's resurrection and ascension (Acts 1:12-14).
• At his execution by stoning, Stephen prayed for himself and for his executioners (Acts 7:59-60).
• Peter went to a rooftop to pray (Acts 10:9).
• Devout women including Lydia met regularly to pray by a riverside (Acts 16:13-14).
• Paul prayed by the seashore with the Christians at Tyre as he said farewell to them (Acts 21:5).
• Paul prayed on a ship that was in grave danger of being wrecked on the rocks. His was a prayer of thanks for the bread he was about to eat (Acts 27:33-36).
• Paul prayed at the bedside of a sick man and healed him (Acts 28:7-8).

 

[stevevw]

The actual reality of this case is going to come down to simple question...
.
"Could her praying silently on the secret be seen as an indication of her objection or support for the abortion clinic?"
.
If the answer is yes, then she technically is not guilty of prayer as guilty of breaching the PSPO's prohibition to show objection or support through any means.
.
If all she was doing was praying silently in her head, I can't image how a court would find her guilty of breaching the PSPO. The burden of proof is on the prosecution to provide evidence that her praying silently, that apparently nobody saw, was this breach. From what we know I think they're going to look stupid, and I can very well see the CPO dropping the case before they get to court... but leaving it until the last minute in order to keep her anxious as long as possible so she won't do it again.
.
As for Mt 6:5, I've seen many Christian's quote this verse to infer this lady was wrong.... and that she was in some way making a protest. I'm saddened by such responses. The reality was that the clinic was closed and there was nobody around to protest to and so the idea that she was somehow making a protest isn't supported by the facts, unless one believes she was involved in getting the police there to make it public. The actual film footage shows she is nervous, cold and clearly uncomfortable, not conducive to someone deliberately setting up the protest.
.
As for the moral of Mt 6:5, it's not about always praying in your closet privately. That is to miss the point and would completely negate the idea of ever praying together that the bible encourages. The point is to not pray for out loud to garner attention for yourself and your fancy prayers. Praying out loud is fine as is praying out loud in public, but one's purpose cannot be like that of the hypocrites.

• On the battlefield at war with the Philistines, Samuel cried out to the Lord to help the children of Israel (1Samuel 7:7-9).
• Nehemiah prayed in the palace of the king while in the king's presence "" (Nehemiah 2:4-5).
• From a deep pit or dungeon the writer of Lamentations called on the name of the LORD (Lamentations 3:55-57).
• Jonah prayed from the fish's belly (Jonah 2:1).
• Gethsemane, believed to be a garden or olive grove, was a place of prayer for Jesus (Matthew 26:36).
• Jesus withdrew into the wilderness to pray(Luke 5:16).
• Jesus went out to a mountain to spend the night in prayer. On another occasion he took Peter, John, and James, up on a mountain to pray. (Luke 6:12, 9:28).
• Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector(Luke 18:10).
• The thief on the cross prayed to Jesus. Jesus also prayed on the cross (Luke 23:34,42).
• In an upper room, the disciples were praying. This was on the day of Pentecost after Jesus's resurrection and ascension (Acts 1:12-14).
• At his execution by stoning, Stephen prayed for himself and for his executioners (Acts 7:59-60).
• Peter went to a rooftop to pray (Acts 10:9).
• Devout women including Lydia met regularly to pray by a riverside (Acts 16:13-14).
• Paul prayed by the seashore with the Christians at Tyre as he said farewell to them (Acts 21:5).
• Paul prayed on a ship that was in grave danger of being wrecked on the rocks. His was a prayer of thanks for the bread he was about to eat (Acts 27:33-36).
• Paul prayed at the bedside of a sick man and healed him (Acts 28:7-8).

Yeah its a complicated issue and on the face of it we should have the right to pray where ever. I don't think it matters if the women was praying for or against the abortion clinic as even praying for the clinic in a restricted zone would be still regarded as a protest for the issue. Just like people march in protest for a particular issue like abortion or same sex marriage.

I think many of the examples you give show how Christians did pray in private such as in rooms, on rooftops, in a dungeon. in the desert away from the public. Christ actually went away from the disciples in the garden of Gethsemane to pray in private. But I also don't think praying in private means you can't pray with other Christians so long as its together in private.

I think the real issue is modern secular society has become politically correct and now are attacking thought as a crime. It doesn't have to be prayer. Look at the gender wars and how males especially are being scrutinized over their intentions towards the opposite sex. Look at the language laws regarding gender pronouns and how many words have been omitted from the English language because they may be offensive to certain people implying a certain thought behind the words.

Its all a form of control to socially engineer a certain ideology that is imposed on everyone. You could say in some ways imposing this ideology onto everyone is denying peoples rights to hold and express their personal beliefs and views. So the law to stop people praying in the name of equality itself undermines equality and creates a divide within society which causes conflicts between people and groups who jostle for their rights.

Its a hard situation as no matter who is in charge so long as we have different beliefs to merely live together means no single view can be dominant. Well at least in western nations. But ironically in doing so the ideology that there can be no single belief itself becomes a belief about how society and the world should be modelled. Some say its the road to socialism and opens the door for stronger forms of political control like Fascism.

 

[Whyayeman]

The actual reality of this case is going to come down to simple question...

This is not about praying silently.

It is about being in breach of an order to allow staff and clients to reach the clinic without molestation. The court will decide if the order was broken.

 

[Darren Court]

This is not about praying silently.

It is about being in breach of an order to allow staff and clients to reach the clinic without molestation. The court will decide if the order was broken.

Firstly, it has not been established there was any breach to the order
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Secondly, since all she was doing was standing and praying, the court will have to establish what exactly constitutes a breach... standing, prayer or both combined. The PSPO itself specifically prohibits praying, you might like to check the wording!
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Thirdly, since the clinic was actually closed when she was stood there, it's going to be interesting argument as to who she was potentially "molesting".

 

[Whyayeman]

Firstly, it has not been established there was any breach to the order
.
Secondly, since all she was doing was standing and praying, the court will have to establish what exactly constitutes a breach... standing, prayer or both combined. The PSPO itself specifically prohibits praying, you might like to check the wording!
.
Thirdly, since the clinic was actually closed when she was stood there, it's going to be interesting argument as to who she was potentially "molesting".

We shall see. If the police have the evidence it will be presented.

 

[Nithavela]

Live rent free in my own head? What? Are you being charged rent for use of your own head?

It's called tithes.

 

[The Liturgist]

Praying is not what she was arrested for. She broke the exclusion zone around the clinic. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

People going to the clinic don’t need people protesting outside to make a difficult time even worse.

On the contrary, they stand to benefit more than most people from information about safer alternatives to abortion, such as Christian crisis pregnancy centers.

Unfortunately the UK lacks the First Ammendment protections on free speech.

 

[Larniavc]

On the contrary, they stand to benefit more than most people from information about safer alternatives to abortion, such as Christian crisis pregnancy centers.

Abortions are safer than giving birth.

 

[The Liturgist]

Abortions are safer than giving birth.

I don’t see how you can possibly claim that considering abortions result in a 100% infant mortality rate whereas in a country like the UK infant mortality is going to trend between 3% and 4% (unadjusted for abortions).

 

[Larniavc]

I don’t see how you can possibly claim that considering abortions result in a 100% infant mortality rate whereas in a country like the UK infant mortality is going to trend between 3% and 4% (unadjusted for abortions).

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

[Whyayeman]

Unfortunately the UK lacks the First Ammendment protections on free speech.

I don't think the exclusion order is good law. On the other hand, this is not about free speech; it is about harrassment of people going about their lawful business, itself an infringement on their liberty.

It is all right to speak against abortion rights in the UK. It is fine to pray - anywhere you want. What is wrong is to attempt to intimidate people whose rights you want to deny. The case in point will have gone to court by now and a decision taken. Anybody know the magistrates' decision?

 

[Whyayeman]

I have looked it up. She is due in court on February 2nd, charged with a breach of a public space protection order.

 

[The Liturgist]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

No, rather, I am simply pointing out the fact that abortion as a procedure is nearly 100% fatal for the infant. I should have modified my number to account for those children severely injured as a result of attempted abortion.

 

[The Liturgist]

If the lawbreaker is Christian it’s persecution, clearly.

Respectfully, that is nonsense. Christians regard following the law as morally imperative, except in rare cases where the law contradicts the Christian faith, for example, the proscription of Christian faith under the Roman Empire from Nero until Diocletian, or the regime of Enver Hoxha In Albania, as a more recent example.

In the specific case of this thread, there appears to be a scenario wherein certain atheist members are interpreting this woman’s actions one way, while Christian members are seeing an alternative side.

England still benefits enormously from having the Church of England as its state religion, and the C of E actually does have a number of pro-life members, so my own thought on this issue is that given the weak protections on free speech in the UK, Christians in England (and alas only in England, since the Welsh and Irish churches were disestablished and the Presbyterian Church of Scotland is not as active in this respect) should work with pro-life groups in the C of E and coordinate their activities with them to reduce the risk of persecution which can occur to individuals such as this lady.

 

[The Liturgist]

Still avoiding the fact that you were wrong in many places but not having enough character to admit same... whilst trying desperately to win a point, but hey I'll continue...

No you can't say that even though you want to.
The fact is that either praying or standing, or both has been deemed to constitute a breach on four counts of the PSPO
Whilst the police haven't indicated that praying or standing are the acts that cause the offense the specific wording of the PSPO does.

Can you not read and accept the wording in the PSPO quoted and the link provided to the local council website is correct?

The FACT is that the PSPO specifically prohibits prayer and so you're wrong but can't admit it!
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/24121/robert_clinic_station_road_b30.pdf

"Protesting, namely engaging in any act of approval or disapproval or attempted act of approval or disapproval, with respect to issues related to abortion services, by any means. This includes but is not limited to graphic, verbal or written means, PRAYER or counselling"

I am not a lawyer, but I think this lady should talk to a lawyer who specializes in ECHR cases, as I am pretty sure such a restriction on prayer is a violation of the ECHR, and while Britain has left the EU, for the time being it remains a member of the Council of Europe (and likely will remain a member indefinitely, and thus an adherent to the European Convention on Human Rights, and there are lawyers in the UK who specialize in appealing cases to the European Court of Human Rights).

Hopefully her church is assisting her with legal representation, because having competent legal advice is essential in scenarios like this.

 

[Astrid]

Sadly, in the UK the police believe that praying silently in your head constitutes a breach to PSPO laws to protest or indicate approval or disapproval.

It's either the biggest mistake West Midlands Police have made in years else a sign of prosecution to come.

The question is whether the Christian community is going to do anything about it? Will you?

WATCH: NEW footage of police arresting woman for silently praying

Birmingham charity volunteer arrested and searched – including through her hair – after silently praying in a censorship zone

adf.uk

Is the deliberate deception in
"Illegal" a mistake?