Praying is now illegal

[Tinker Grey]

I sympathise with the difficulty in getting unbiased news coverage. It's a probably for all those who are keen to get at the truth.
It is possible to get impartial info though... here's one local link Woman charged with breaching exclusion zone near abortion clinic

You are right, though, most of the outlets reporting this do have a conservative bias but in itself is telling. Why aren't the liberal, pro-abortion outlets picking it up and presenting a different perspective? Perhaps because they know in the end it's not going to look good!

Interesting. That article doesn't even mention prayer.

 

[Whyayeman]

It's either the biggest mistake West Midlands Police have made in years else a sign of prosecution to come.

I think this is quite an exaggeration. I can cite much bigger mistakes than that!

But it is misleading to suggest, as this post has, that the woman was arrested for 'silently praying'. She was a protester. She came to Kings Norton, Birmingham from Malvern in the next county. Whether she broke the conditions imposed on demonstrations in those streets will be decided in court next year.

 

[FenderTL5]

..it is misleading to suggest, as this post has, that the woman was arrested for 'silently praying'. She was a protester. She came to Kings Norton, Birmingham from Malvern in the next county. Whether she broke the conditions imposed on demionstations in those streets will be decided in court next year.

I have to agree.
Further, this was the fourth time (in the OP link and in the news link in post 40) making it a repeated offense. This may/may not be the first arrest. If it was the first arrest then she was given benefit of the doubt on three other occasions.
I wonder who recorded the video?

 

[Larniavc]

Interesting. That article doesn't even mention prayer.

IKR?

Who knew?

 

[Darren Court]

Interesting. That article doesn't even mention prayer

What article? I provided a link to the video clip of her actual arrest where she is standing and might be praying, which constituted arrest!

 

[Tinker Grey]

What article? I provided a link to the video clip of her actual arrest where she is standing and might be praying, which constituted arrest!

The article you posted in post #40.

 

[Darren Court]

The article you posted in post #40.

Oh you picked up the thread in the middle! That link was in response to a guy who said he could only find articles from conservative media and so I offered him a local news report!

Here's the link from the start of the thread ...https://adf.uk/woman-arrested-for-prayer/

This woman was standing silently on the corner of a street near to an abortion clinic that was closed. She was asked why she was standing there and she said "She might be praying" after which she was arrested.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This is the actual law.

https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/10.21%20PSPO%20guidance_06_1.pdf

The law says it's up to the local government to decide the parameters of a PSPO, so see below.

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/24121/robert_clinic_station_road_b30.pdf

It looks like the "Prayer" and "Intimidation" by "display of image" (someone silently praying) is the issue under the public ordinance.

It is important to note, since someone in the thread has been denying it, it actually is illegal to pray in that zone for the next 3 years.

 

[Darren Court]

This is the actual law.

https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/10.21%20PSPO%20guidance_06_1.pdf

The law says it's up to the local government to decide the parameters of a PSPO, so see below.

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/24121/robert_clinic_station_road_b30.pdf

View attachment 325520

View attachment 325521

It looks like the "Prayer" and "Intimidation" by "display of image" (someone silently praying) is the issue under the public ordinance.

It is important to note, since someone in the thread has been denying it, it actually is illegal to pray in that zone for the next 3 years.

View attachment 325522

Thanks for posting....

Will be very interesting to see how the prosecution try to claim standing on a street corner silently but potentially praying inside their head contravenes any of this!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Thanks for posting....

Will be very interesting to see how the prosecution try to claim standing on a street corner silently but potentially praying inside their head contravenes any of this!

If she did not respond, they'd have nothing, but she pretty much admitted to praying so ..

 

[Darren Court]

If she did not respond, they'd have nothing, but she pretty much admitted to praying so ..

Well, firstly it's not been established in silent praying is any kind of breach of the PSPO

Secondly, she didn't admit to praying.. what she actually said is "I MIGHT have been praying"

...either way the police are going to look stupid on Feb 2nd!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Well, firstly it's not been established in silent praying is any kind of breach of the PSPO

Secondly, she didn't admit to praying.. what she actually said is "I MIGHT have been praying"

...either way the police are going to look stupid on Feb 2nd!

However, all the coverage on the internet (including the support for the arrested) seems to indicate that she was praying, and this is a case of religious persecution. It will be hard to shake that. Though through luck, they might get a judge who doesn't consider "internet stuff" as valid evidence.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Still no one rejoicing because of religious persecution, they go to law instead.

 

[Darren Court]

However, all the coverage on the internet (including the support for the arrested) seems to indicate that she was praying, and this is a case of religious persecution. It will be hard to shake that. Though through luck, they might get a judge who doesn't consider "internet stuff" as valid evidence.

If she's going to be convicted it has to be "without reasonable doubt" and that's going to need evidence. The fact the internet believes she was praying, or indeed if every person on the planet believed she was, it's still not evidence. To date, there's been no proven mechanism to determine someone stood silently is praying.

The trial is going to be comical... but I suspect the CPS will drop it well before Feb 2nd with an apology from the police shortly thereafter!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If she's going to be convicted it has to be "without reasonable doubt" and that's going to need evidence. The fact the internet believes she was praying, or indeed if every person on the planet believed she was, it's still not evidence. To date, there's been no proven mechanism to determine someone stood silently is praying.

The trial is going to be comical... but I suspect the CPS will drop it well before Feb 2nd with an apology from the police shortly thereafter!

That is likely, guess we'll see.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Since the courts cannot prove pseudo-scientifical notions, they can only treat praying silently as a form of being present to intimidate, and display disapproval.

However, someone could just as easily said, sorry, I must've fell asleep.

 

[Darren Court]

Since the courts cannot prove pseudo-scientifical notions, they can only treat praying silently as a form of being present to intimidate, and display disapproval.

However, someone could just as easily said, sorry, I must've fell asleep.

It's going to be really difficult to make the case that standing there constitutes "being present to intimidate and display approval" when the clinic was actually shut whilst she was there. Who exactly was she was she intimidating and display approval to by standing there silently at that time?

As I said, comical!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's going to be really difficult to make the case that standing there constitutes "being present to intimidate and display approval" when the clinic was actually shut whilst she was there. Who exactly was she was she intimidating and display approval to by standing there silently at that time?

As I said, comical!

Your point is well made in the arena of public discourse. However, the concept that "the law is the law" is a very British one. So it might not matter that the clinic wasn't open on that day, just that the zone law was violated.

 

[Darren Court]

Your point is well made in the arena of public discourse. However, the concept that "the law is the law" is a very British one. So it might not matter that the clinic wasn't open on that day, just that the zone law was violated.

On an ordinary and with well written laws I would totally agree with you, but this certainly isn't the case here!

The wording on PSPO is laughably vague but it's intent is pretty clear... no protest, no indication of approval or disapproval an no attempt to interfere. There's no evidence any of these apply UNLESS standing there with no visual evidence any of these were breached is considered a breach by virtue of being there. It certainly does matter that the clinic was closed because to demonstrate breach, they will need to prove protest, indication of approval or disapproval or interference and clearly it's much easier if there were women passing her on the street going to get abortions.

The problem with finding her guilty by standing there is enormous because it beggars the question "Does standing there indicate approval or disapproval?" The fact that she holds a view one way or other cannot speak to how standing there silently with no visual clues, means she communicated disapproval anymore than it would if someone else was there it would communicate approval.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

On an ordinary and with well written laws I would totally agree with you, but this certainly isn't the case here!

The wording on PSPO is laughably vague but it's intent is pretty clear... no protest, no indication of approval or disapproval an no attempt to interfere. There's no evidence any of these apply UNLESS standing there with no visual evidence any of these were breached is considered a breach by virtue of being there. It certainly does matter that the clinic was closed because to demonstrate breach, they will need to prove protest, indication of approval or disapproval or interference and clearly it's much easier if there were women passing her on the street going to get abortions.

The problem with finding her guilty by standing there is enormous because it beggars the question "Does standing there indicate approval or disapproval?" The fact that she holds a view one way or other cannot speak to how standing there silently with no visual clues, means she communicated disapproval anymore than it would if someone else was there it would communicate approval.

I probably won't hear about the verdict since it's in the UK, but it's up to the lawyers to navigate logical loopholes. A PSPO is like a new type of by-law, so the same expectations held for federal legislation would be met with disappointment.

Due to the history of prolife protesting in that neighborhood regarding the clinic, the statement "maybe I was praying" could be taken as a statement of disapproval. If there is more evidence, it is not being released to the media.

We'll have just wait and see.