Praying at school

[stan1980]

From the ages of 4 to 11 i had to pray and sit through a bible passage at school every single morning without fail. This was a state school and i'm not sure if i was able to opt out, i never really questioned it, but had i opted out i probably would have felt fairly isolated. Looking back at it, it does seem wrong to try and "brainwash" children into christianity, and i know for sure i wouldn't send my children to such a school.

Does this still go on, and if so is it ethical to make children go through this every day?

 

[Steezie]

As long as there are tests, there will ALWAYS be prayer in school

 

[TheOutsider]

From the ages of 4 to 11 i had to pray and sit through a bible passage at school every single morning without fail. This was a state school and I'm not sure if i was able to opt out, i never really questioned it, but had i opted out i probably would have felt fairly isolated. Looking back at it, it does seem wrong to try and "brainwash" children into Christianity, and i know for sure i wouldn't send my children to such a school.

Does this still go on, and if so is it ethical to make children go through this every day?

Government-directed prayer in public schools was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1962 (Engel v. Vitale). "School sponsorship of a religious message is impermissible because it (tells) members of the audience who are non-adherents that they are outsiders," wrote Justice John Paul Stevens in the majority opinion.

 

[stan1980]

Government-directed prayer in public schools was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1962 (Engel v. Vitale). "School sponsorship of a religious message is impermissible because it (tells) members of the audience who are non-adherents that they are outsiders," wrote Justice John Paul Stevens in the majority opinion.

I should just add i went to school in the UK. I think a law like yours would be a good idea over here.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

From the ages of 4 to 11 i had to pray and sit through a bible passage at school every single morning without fail. This was a state school and i'm not sure if i was able to opt out, i never really questioned it, but had i opted out i probably would have felt fairly isolated. Looking back at it, it does seem wrong to try and "brainwash" children into christianity, and i know for sure i wouldn't send my children to such a school.

Does this still go on, and if so is it ethical to make children go through this every day?

I should just add i went to school in the UK. I think a law like yours would be a good idea over here.

I had the same experience. It wasn't something I questioned, it was just something you did, like registration in the morning or lunchtime in the afternoon.
I remember that if one of our friends wasn't praying (i.e., didn't have their eyes closed, hands together, head bowed), we'd say "Ummm, I'm telling on you!". Haha, we were right little gits.

Of course, today I'd be disgusted if I knew mandatory prayer was going on in my child's school. But back then it was just the thing you did. I remember spending the time just day-dreaming about flying in the sky. Good times.

 

[gengwall]

I'm not sure what it would be like in England today. Although England is probably more secular than America today, they did hang onto the church/state relationship far longer than America (primarily at the state level) did. Didn't you just have a post on a church "tax" (government collected fees to support local church projects) in England.

 

[cantata]

My state primary school also had a prayer and hymns during daily assemblies. (We're talking 90s here.) As far as I know, the practice still continues. There are also state faith schools (which personally I hate - I do not wish segregation to be state-funded). When I was at primary school, I assumed that all that stuff was much like Aesop's fables; that these were stories you told children to teach moral values and what have you. I remember my astonishment when I found out that there were grown-ups who believed in it too.

I didn't find my school experiences particularly disturbing. If you are brought up in a Christian family, prayer in school will just be an extension of that. For me, it was a ritual that I went along with without ever believing any of it. I don't think it's brainwashing. Parents were certainly permitted to withdraw their children from prayer and hymn-singing, too; there were some children of Plymouth Brethren parents who were not allowed to eat or pray with people who weren't members of that sect.

If I had children, I don't think I'd withdraw them if I found out that they were encouraged to take part in prayer or hymn-singing. I would perhaps discuss it with them and let them know that this is something they are allowed to make their own choices about, but I think it's good for children to see other points of view. Of course, if they asked to opt out because it made them uncomfortable, I would allow them to.

 

[LittleNipper]

From the ages of 4 to 11 i had to pray and sit through a bible passage at school every single morning without fail. This was a state school and i'm not sure if i was able to opt out, i never really questioned it, but had i opted out i probably would have felt fairly isolated. Looking back at it, it does seem wrong to try and "brainwash" children into christianity, and i know for sure i wouldn't send my children to such a school.

Does this still go on, and if so is it ethical to make children go through this every day?

Anything that is taught at school is a form of "brainwashing" as you call it. It maybe math, science or history; however, each contains elements of subjectivity. The reality is that merely reading a Bible verse does not make one a "Christian." It might just present one with food for thought, and that is what makes for an excellent education and not simply mundane repetitions.

 

[jayem]

Government-directed prayer in public schools was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1962 (Engel v. Vitale). "School sponsorship of a religious message is impermissible because it (tells) members of the audience who are non-adherents that they are outsiders," wrote Justice John Paul Stevens in the majority opinion.

Just a little nit-pick. Stevens wasn't on the court when Engel was decided. I think it was Hugo Black who wrote the majority opinion.

I started public school in the late 50s. Up till the 4th grade or so, we recited the Lord's Prayer and had a Bible reading to start the day. I don't think it did anything. We'd mumble through the prayer by rote memory and I doubt that most of us paid much attention to it. Kinda like the Pledge of Allegiance. When it's such an everyday routine, it loses significance.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Anything that is taught at school is a form of "brainwashing" as you call it.

I disagree. Brainwashing can be considered a subset of education, but it is very distinct from, say, a mathematician proving the First Fundamental Theorem of Calculus to her students. Brainwashing involves the deliberate misrepresentation of facts: hiding alternate options, over-emphasising certain facts and under-emphasising others, delibterate repitition, authoritative enforcement, etc.

Science, art, history, etc, if properly done, do not present the facts in a biased way. And I think that's the key word: bias. By forcing young children to pray en masse, they create a bias in the children's mind that Christian prayer is normal and right, and other spiritual activities are bad (Muslim prayer, for instance, or Buddhist meditation). Of course, the zeitgeist marches on and we see more people abhoring enforced prayer and embracing 'aternative' spiritualities.

A mathematical proof isn't brainwashing for unqiue reasons that pertain to the nature of proof. You can't brainwash someone into thinking that 1 + 1 = 2 because you can prove that 1 + 1 = 2.

I guess my point is that education is not necessarily brainwashing. Informing a child of geological strata is not brainwashing. Telling that it is a 100% proven fact that such strata were formed by a divine Flood (or, indeed, millions of years of sedimentation) is.

It maybe math, science or history; however, each contains elements of subjectivity.

Maths doesn't

The reality is that merely reading a Bible verse does not make one a "Christian." It might just present one with food for thought, and that is want makes for an excellent education and not simply mundane repetitions.

On the contrary: children repeating Bible verses with no understanding of what they meant (I remember reciting the Lord's Prayer, and wondering what on Earth a 'trespass' was), and with no interaction with non-Christian literature... I would consider that more sinister than just 'food for thought'.

 

[KarrieTex]

From the ages of 4 to 11 i had to pray and sit through a bible passage at school every single morning without fail. This was a state school and i'm not sure if i was able to opt out, i never really questioned it, but had i opted out i probably would have felt fairly isolated. Looking back at it, it does seem wrong to try and "brainwash" children into christianity, and i know for sure i wouldn't send my children to such a school.

Does this still go on, and if so is it ethical to make children go through this every day?

I am having a very hard time believing this. Especially with your age being 27.

What part of the country were you in?

This wasn't an issue when I was even in school on the elementary and secondary levels and I am a good year or so older than you.

 

[Madcoil]

From the ages of 4 to 11 i had to pray and sit through a bible passage at school every single morning without fail. This was a state school and i'm not sure if i was able to opt out, i never really questioned it, but had i opted out i probably would have felt fairly isolated. Looking back at it, it does seem wrong to try and "brainwash" children into christianity, and i know for sure i wouldn't send my children to such a school.

Does this still go on, and if so is it ethical to make children go through this every day?

Of course, WE had it TOUGH. Every morning we had to carry a pail of water each into the boiler room, light the boiler, shovel the coal for 2 hours and THEN go up to the classroom and have a sing-song. A SING-SONG, mind!

 

[stan1980]

I am having a very hard time believing this. Especially with your age being 27.

What part of the country were you in?

This wasn't an issue when I was even in school on the elementary and secondary levels and I am a good year or so older than you.

This was in London, England. From what i hear from this thread this doesn't happen in your country. We even had a priest from the local methodist church come round every week to give a talk.

 

[stan1980]

Of course, WE had it TOUGH. Every morning we had to carry a pail of water each into the boiler room, light the boiler, shovel the coal for 2 hours and THEN go up to the classroom and have a sing-song. A SING-SONG, mind!

What century were you born in?

 

[cantata]

This was in London, England. From what i hear from this thread this doesn't happen in your country. We even had a priest from the local methodist church come round every week to give a talk.

I feel your pain; people assume I'm American and I even have a little Union Jack up there by my name!

 

[stan1980]

I feel your pain; people assume I'm American and I even have a little Union Jack up there by my name!

Yes, i should get one of those to avoid confusion... how do you get one?

 

[cantata]

Yes, i should get one of those to avoid confusion... how do you get one?

In your control panel, go to "Edit Profile" and scroll down to find "Country" - there's a drop-down list.

 

[LittleNipper]

I disagree. Brainwashing can be considered a subset of education, but it is very distinct from, say, a mathematician proving the First Fundamental Theorem of Calculus to her students. Brainwashing involves the deliberate misrepresentation of facts: hiding alternate options, over-emphasising certain facts and under-emphasising others, delibterate repitition, authoritative enforcement, etc.

Science, art, history, etc, if properly done, do not present the facts in a biased way. And I think that's the key word: bias. By forcing young children to pray en masse, they create a bias in the children's mind that Christian prayer is normal and right, and other spiritual activities are bad (Muslim prayer, for instance, or Buddhist meditation). Of course, the zeitgeist marches on and we see more people abhoring enforced prayer and embracing 'aternative' spiritualities.

A mathematical proof isn't brainwashing for unqiue reasons that pertain to the nature of proof. You can't brainwash someone into thinking that 1 + 1 = 2 because you can prove that 1 + 1 = 2.

I guess my point is that education is not necessarily brainwashing. Informing a child of geological strata is not brainwashing. Telling that it is a 100% proven fact that such strata were formed by a divine Flood (or, indeed, millions of years of sedimentation) is.


Maths doesn't


On the contrary: children repeating Bible verses with no understanding of what they meant (I remember reciting the Lord's Prayer, and wondering what on Earth a 'trespass' was), and with no interaction with non-Christian literature... I would consider that more sinister than just 'food for thought'.

Have you never had a teacher talk to you concerning a war or politics or the "environment." A teacher has never had a passion for Darwin, Sinclair Lewis, or Picasso. A teacher has never spoken accolades surrounding the movie CITIZEN KANE....

 

[stan1980]

In your control panel, go to "Edit Profile" and scroll down to find "Country" - there's a drop-down list.

 

[keith99]

Just a little nit-pick. Stevens wasn't on the court when Engel was decided. I think it was Hugo Black who wrote the majority opinion.

I started public school in the late 50s. Up till the 4th grade or so, we recited the Lord's Prayer and had a Bible reading to start the day. I don't think it did anything. We'd mumble through the prayer by rote memory and I doubt that most of us paid much attention to it. Kinda like the Pledge of Allegiance. When it's such an everyday routine, it loses significance.

This reminds me of a TV 'movie' I saw years ago. I think it was titled "The Childrens Hour" and took an hour time slot. (Don't bother with google, there are other things with that name that swamp any lookup and I could have it wrong). In any case it took the boring Russians invade movie and put on a very interesting twist. The Russians invaded and occupied. Our story follows brainwashing the children. We see one class, the children have a new teacher. She is pretty, she is young, she is nice. She is VERY well trained. She totally demolishes the idea of the pledge of allegiance and ends with saying how nice our flag is and how she would like a piece of it and asks the children if they would also. End of that point is flag cut into little pieces, by the hands of the children. The previous teacher was there and by very good camera work we see her emotions, her realization of the error of having a rote practice and her realization that the minds of the young have been lost and with that all hope.