Prayers to Theotokos...Some QuestionsI've

[All4Christ]

Btw, I am reading each post and really appreciate it. I am processing it all and will post in more detail later. it's been a crazy couple days, and I'll be gone most of today. Your help means so much, as it is often hard to explain how I feel. I truly want to get past this....it just seems to be the hardest hurdle for me to get through emotionally, as @Stabat Mater suggested. Thank you again!

 

[All4Christ]

It seems like my husband just "gets it" without any trouble at all. He tries to help by sending me articles about the Theology of the Theotokos - which I agree with wholeheartedly! It seems to just be in the process of showing my love and devotion to her through the prayers of Orthodox praxis that I start to struggle. What you all are saying does help...I really appreciate it!

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It seems like my husband just "gets it" without any trouble at all. He tries to help by sending me articles about the Theology of the Theotokos - which I agree with wholeheartedly! It seems to just be in the process of showing my love and devotion to her through the prayers of Orthodox praxis that I start to struggle. What you all are saying does help...I really appreciate it!

So Your husband is actually Orthodox aswell, that I didnt know.
How fortunate that you may build each other up and help one another with faith related questions.

Mixed marriages are a burden and a Heavy one too.
This was indeed great news

 

[All4Christ]

So Your husband is actually Orthodox aswell, that I didnt know.
How fortunate that you may build each other up and help one another with faith related questions.

Mixed marriages are a burden and a Heavy one too.
This was indeed great news

I'm thankful that I chose Orthodoxy before I met him...I met him when I was a catechumen. He and his family have helped me throughout my journey

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I'm thankful that I chose Orthodoxy before I met him...I met him when I was a catechumen. He and his family have helped me throughout my journey

How wonderful
I wish to someday (if I get well again) find a girl to marry in the Church too or heck a Orthodox girl devoted to her faith would be at least as good.
I envy married couples that share whats a strong faith combined.

Its lonesome not to have someone that Close to you whom you may share Your intimate religious feelings and pray with.

Count Your blessing dear sister.

 

[Femina]

The hymns and prayers also need to be understood in the context of the innumerable times Panagia has literally stepped in to save us throughout the history of the Church. It is quite evident that she has aligned her will completely with Christ's and involves herself heavily in the salvation of God's people. There are many, many miracle working icons of Panagia, and if you recall the colors used for her robes and Christ's in Orthodox icons, Christ wears red or purple underneath with blue over the top signifying His divinity clothed in our humanity, whereas with Panagia she wears blue underneath with red or purple over the top signifying her humanity is now clothed in Christ's divinity. This of course will be the outcome for all who are found at Christ's right hand, "God became man so that man might become god", but the Church has declared that it is already the reality for the Mother of God. .
The question I ask now is if Panagia has indeed been clothed in Christ's divinity, would she not now be able to do by Grace what God does by nature?

From the many times she has stepped in, I suspect the answer is yes.

I think Mary loves the title of Panagia and what it represents. I am sure the Panagia is so much more than we can imagine. Every time I think of her I am filled with hope. Yet there is so much that I don't know and that I can't understand but I do feel very close to the Panagia...

 

[paul becke]

Well as I see it the purpose of Mariology and a intimate relationship with her as our beloved spiritual mother is to give us her children a sense of mothership into the faith.
She is there for us to strenghten our faith when we stumble, she is there to wipe tears off of our face when we`re suffering for our faith or in life in general.
She is in many ways the feminine aspect and expression of our faith, she`s there with her warmth, she`s there for us to approach whenever we`ve sinned and feel to unworthy of approaching Christ directely.

Her interseccion is there for the benefit of our relationship with Christ and as a guidance to the salvation of mankind.
If she fails to fulfill these prescribed roles one should abstain form venerating her and praying to her as her solemn purpose is to lead souls to heaven.

Its as unlike Mother Mary as its possible to come to face her as a obstacle in faith.
Mary serve a purpose only when she fulfill her co-redemrix role and if not one might be called towards other spiritual exercises and fruits of the spirit.

Yes, Stabat Mater. I think that is a very important point. There seem to be Catholics - as there were, mutatis mutandis, religious Jews in Jesus own day - who would make our faith more than reverend - they would make it austere.

I love the perfect sense of Maximilian Kolbe's little aphorism : "If anyone does not wish to have Mary Immaculate for his Mother, he will not have Christ for his Brother." I know God is a disciplinarian as regards reverence and recollection during most of the Mass (some joyful exuberance surely allowed for during the sign of Peace and in our interior attitude to God during Holy Communion), but he is not a vain martinet, is he ? It's for our sake, when formality is appropriate. Jesus didn't come down from heaven as a man to pass on to us an austere approach to God. Far from it. Is it not the case that even the Our Father should really be Our Dad. I'm not sure I could do it ! Jesus/God is a family man, and that's the long and the short of it. And are we not supposed to approach God as the little children we are in his eyes ?

As regards Our Lady specifically, what a mystery she is, when we think of her in theological terms, instead of as our heavenly Mother. You look at the night sky on a clear night, and ponder its size ; not billions of stars. not billions of constellations, but billions of galaxies ! And then reflect on Mary giving birth from her own body to the Creator of it all. And even then, its size means nothing to him; not next to nothing..... nothing. Physical size is a chimera. We and the universe are said by physicists to be more like God's thoughts than any physical reality.

So, because infinity is without end, how could we assign a magnitude to Our Lady ? One Catholic NDE'r called Joseph, said that she appeared to him to be the size of the Empire State Building. But when you consider that next to the size of the Milky Way, and then all the billions of other galaxies - of which we have only been able to detect a portion, it does kind of seem likely that she must be, as they say with beautiful understatement, of 'Galacticos', super-star soccer-players, 'a bit special.'

(I've deleted some concluding sentences, as many might interpret them as irreverent, and while I, of course, since deleting them, do not, such musings should probably remain personal).

 

[seekingsolace]

Prayers of the Saints and the Theotokos aren't a hurdle, though I struggle with certain phrases too. Slowly trying to digest all that is being said, thank you.

Thank you A4C for posting! I didn't want to be an outsider asking the questions.

 

[All4Christ]

Prayers of the Saints and the Theotokos aren't a hurdle, though I struggle with certain phrases too. Slowly trying to digest all that is being said, thank you.

Thank you A4C for posting! I didn't want to be an outsider asking the questions.

Certainly! I think we feel the same way on this.

That said, I'm guessing most of your questions are probably ones other people have or at least used to have. Please feel free to ask any question!

 

[seekingsolace]

Certainly! I think we feel the same way on this.

That said, I'm guessing most of your questions are probably ones other people have or at least used to have. Please feel free to ask any question!

Thank you dear sister.

 

[ripple the car]

Laura, what is helping me immensely is praying *to* Christ about His Blessed Mother, and allowing Him to answer all my questions slowly, instead of me trying to tangle my brain around Mary and figure Her out logically. Nothing is logical about asking a singular Jewish Man who lived 2,000 years ago to save you from hell, death, and sin, but we do so by faith, affirming that He is God in flesh, and the only Way to the Father. In the same way, perhaps Marian veneration takes a similar kind of loving, illogical trust and application.

Pray to Christ about His Holy Mother; He knows everything, and can help us know Her more deeply, too.

 

[All4Christ]

Laura, what is helping me immensely is praying *to* Christ about His Blessed Mother, and allowing Him to answer all my questions slowly, instead of me trying to tangle my brain around Mary and figure Her out logically. Nothing is logical about asking a singular Jewish Man who lived 2,000 years ago to save you from hell, death, and sin, but we do so by faith, affirming that He is God in flesh, and the only Way to the Father. In the same way, perhaps Marian veneration takes a similar kind of loving, illogical trust and application.

Pray to Christ about His Holy Mother; He knows everything, and can help us know Her more deeply, too.

That is a wonderful idea Gracia! I will definitely do that. Thank you!! (In fact, it's probably the best idea I've heard. This may not be something I get over solely by intellectual means - I've tried for ten years! What better way to love the Theotokos in the way Christ wants us to than to pray to Him about it!)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ah, I'm glad you said that, Gracia Singh. That's what I have done as well, but was too dense to say so.

I've been praying pretty steadily on that for two years, and have gotten a lot of answers, step by step, but it comes slowly.

The result is a firmness of faith though. God knows what He is doing.

 

[seekingsolace]

I expect it is from my lack of understanding but the terminology is a great struggle. Terms such as save us, the hope of our salvation, and 'For I know no other help but thee, no other intercessor, no gracious consoler but thee, O Mother of God, to guard and protect me throughout the ages.' (in my mind) are raising status to almost an equality with God - Christ Himself.

The Theotokos is deserving of our reverence, but I struggle to see the boundary of proper limits. It feels that the lines are being blurred, when I read the idea and oft accepted belief that Christ cannot deny the requests of the Theotokos. The work of Redemption appears to be changing. To use the words of St. John Maximovitch: "... in its strivings to exalt the Most Holy Virgin, is going on the path of complete deification of Her. And if even now its authorities call Mary a complement of the Holy Trinity, one may soon expect that the Virgin will be revered like God." This a is reference to the RCC (I am not arguing for or against here) which although differs in Theology to the East, does still give cause for concern in a general sense.

St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper."

I understand that through the intercession of Saints and the Theotokos, God may have compassion and mercy on us. The power of prayer as deliverance I understand could be equated to the term saving us. Though I would not want to attribute saving to anyone but God. "O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, through the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and God-bearing fathers, and all the saints, have mercy on us and save us, for Thou art good and the Lover of mankind. Amen"

Discounting the save us term then, the prayer in the Akathist, to our Most Holy Lady Mother of God: "For I know no other help but thee, no other intercessor, no gracious consoler but thee" surely is not accurate?

I believe that theologically the power of the prayer through the Theotokos can be greater than that of the Saints. Though to say I have no other intercessor or help, I don't understand.

I have no intention of debating, I just really want to come to understanding of this. It is my greatest hurdle by far. Forgive me if anything I say sounds irreverent, it is never my intention. Your prayers for those of us still in this struggle are greatly appreciated.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I honestly think it's a very good idea to address things that might possibly cause concern, and give reasons and explanations for each of them, if there is one and it's appropriate.

The ones that say "save us" in some form are the ones I have the best understanding of. (Some of them I can't answer at all yet.)

Firstly, we sing "Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Savior save us!" Sometimes that gets abbreviated down in various steps, the perhaps the simplest of which is merely "most Holy Theotokos save us". In the cases where we are really asking Christ to save us and to add the intercession of the Theotokos to that effect, I see nothing wrong. That's no different than someone who is struggling and asks someone else to pray that God will help him, and almost no one would object to that.

Sometimes too the 'saving" we request is not eternal salvation, but protection from harm here on earth. There is indeed a long history of such prayers to the Theotokos (Panagia), and many accounts of miraculous answers. Pairing that with the understanding of the Theotokos as already in a glorified resurrection body, and being that her life was essentially devoted to bringing forth the Christ, so she is intensely invested in seeing His work furthered, it begins to make sense.

And as someone mentioned, Paul even talks about himself as "saving some" ... and we don't interpret that to mean that Paul is anyone's savior or a co-redeemer in any way.

I understand most of those instances, based on one or a combination of these factors.

Other things I read I'd like to understand better. I may, as I run across them, ask specifically about. When I first encountered them, I wasn't able to discern how much weight the Church places on various things. And the source may be a bit questionable - I don't remember where they come from so don't know.

I'm most uncomfortable, for example, with a description I read where Christ was supposedly ready to act in vengeance and the Theotokos stayed Him. (Being that it seemed to mischaracterize Christ, I'm thinking this one might not be "official".)

But what we find in the Liturgy IS accepted by the Church, so it needs to be understood, or dealt with, etc.

I'm still working on it.

Because I am baptized Orthodox, I accept the Church's authority and I believe in the end I will find that she is correct, when I properly understand. Any perceived error I attribute to my own misunderstanding, and I've found that repeatedly to be true early on, which is why I'm able to accept it. However, in the meantime, with my lack of understanding, some prayers would violate my conscience, so I don't say them. I think that is wise, because in my misunderstanding, I think I would mean something the Church doesn't really intend to say if I pray them, so I hold off until I reach understanding.

But I do think it's very important to address these things.

 

[ripple the car]

I expect it is from my lack of understanding but the terminology is a great struggle. Terms such as save us, the hope of our salvation, and 'For I know no other help but thee, no other intercessor, no gracious consoler but thee, O Mother of God, to guard and protect me throughout the ages.' (in my mind) are raising status to almost an equality with God - Christ Himself.

The Theotokos is deserving of our reverence, but I struggle to see the boundary of proper limits. It feels that the lines are being blurred, when I read the idea and oft accepted belief that Christ cannot deny the requests of the Theotokos. The work of Redemption appears to be changing. To use the words of St. John Maximovitch: "... in its strivings to exalt the Most Holy Virgin, is going on the path of complete deification of Her. And if even now its authorities call Mary a complement of the Holy Trinity, one may soon expect that the Virgin will be revered like God." This a is reference to the RCC (I am not arguing for or against here) which although differs in Theology to the East, does still give cause for concern in a general sense.

St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper."

I understand that through the intercession of Saints and the Theotokos, God may have compassion and mercy on us. The power of prayer as deliverance I understand could be equated to the term saving us. Though I would not want to attribute saving to anyone but God. "O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, through the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and God-bearing fathers, and all the saints, have mercy on us and save us, for Thou art good and the Lover of mankind. Amen"

Discounting the save us term then, the prayer in the Akathist, to our Most Holy Lady Mother of God: "For I know no other help but thee, no other intercessor, no gracious consoler but thee" surely is not accurate?

I believe that theologically the power of the prayer through the Theotokos can be greater than that of the Saints. Though to say I have no other intercessor or help, I don't understand.

I have no intention of debating, I just really want to come to understanding of this. It is my greatest hurdle by far. Forgive me if anything I say sounds irreverent, it is never my intention. Your prayers for those of us still in this struggle are greatly appreciated.

That's alright, I find myself here, too. I can say tiny prayers of praise to her in my head, but still save cries or pleas for forgiveness, mercy, and salvation to the Father and the Son. I would not feel comfortable asking the Holy Virgin to save me. Maybe we'll get there someday.

 

[All4Christ]

That's alright, I find myself here, too. I can say tiny prayers of praise to her in my head, but still save cries or pleas for forgiveness, mercy, and salvation to the Father and the Son. I would not feel comfortable asking the Holy Virgin to save me. Maybe we'll get there someday.

It's a long process I'm still on it myself! I always insert "through your intercession to your Son" or something like that in my head. Maybe I shouldn't do that, but I feel like I have to clarify what I mean mentally...

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It's a long process I'm still on it myself! I always insert "through your intercession to your Son" or something like that in my head. Maybe I shouldn't do that, but I feel like I have to clarify what I mean mentally...

Why shouldn't you do that?
I'm sure all parties involved know what you mean

Mary was the biggest obstacle in the beginning of my exploration into the Catholic Church,but towards the end of my rcia course I understood that it was in fact mother Mary who called me to the church.

To start with a did feel like I find something wrong whenever I prayed to her, but it has developed into a deep relationship ever since then.

Mother Mary has really comforted me in my current illness and calmed my fear of death so much.

Before I believed in her now I know her.

Our lady, my sweet mother.

 

[All4Christ]

Why shouldn't you do that?
I'm sure all parties involved know what you mean

Mary was the biggest obstacle in the beginning of my exploration into the Catholic Church,but towards the end of my rcia course I understood that it was in fact mother Mary who called me to the church.

To start with a did feel like I find something wrong whenever I prayed to her, but it has developed into a deep relationship ever since then.

Mother Mary has really comforted me in my current illness and calmed my fear of death so much.

Before I believed in her now I know her.

Our lady, my sweet mother.

That's so important that you have both her and God to comfort you and be there for you during this time! It also is encouraging to see that over time, we can understand her role and relationship more.

I too am praying for you! It's so wonderful we have the entire body of Christ, both here on this earth and all in Heaven to join in prayer.

I think for now, I will continue to add that part saying "through your prayers" or "the power your Son gave you"...and I think I also will talk to my priest.

 

[ripple the car]

Is it possible that some Catholic / Orthodox laypersons have a misconception about this?

In Protestantism, there is a phenomenon called "easy-believism", in which one is saved and forgiven now and forever by simple faith in Christ minus any kind of holiness, effort, discipleship, charity, forgiveness of others, or growth after the fact.

Could it be that some Catholics and Orthodox misunderstand the role of the Virgin and use her mercy and prayers as a presumed "get out of hell free" card? Minus efforts at discipleship, growth, holiness, or carrying one's cross?

I'm not saying that the Orthodox and Catholic churches actually *teach* this, only that perhaps some laypeople have misunderstood?